I like Sam more and more. He's got more spunk than I originally gave him credit for, bopping that Bill Ferny guy on the nose with an apple. Plus he likes poetry.
Also sympathised with the hobbits getting swarmed by clouds of midges as they walked through the marshes...Jeff and I were almost carried away by blackflies on our hike just yesterday. :-)
Hey, I recognize the word "Silmarils" in Strider's story of Beren and Luthien. Can I assume that the Silmarils play a prominent role in the book, "The Silmarillion" (or however you spell it)?
Great cliffhanger chapter ending! But argh, I find it somewhat frustrating that Frodo doesn't clue in about his "sudden temptations" to put on the Ring which always result in bad things happening. He should store the Ring in such a way that it's harder to get to, shouldn't he?
Replies: 15 comments
Debbie,
The Silmarils and their history provide a lot of background and history (mostly revealed through poems and songs), but are not a direct part of LOTR. Frodo reached for the Ring, because of its insidious power, it has an almost unrisistable call.
Do you recall saying you were a bit disappointed that there seemed to be no effect when the Hobbits ate and drank Elvish food? I think Frodo's cry when attacked is in part an answer to this. Tolkien's Elves are both more subtle, and more powerful than the "traditional" fairy tale elves. They do affect mortals who interact with them, but it's not an instant, obvious transformation.
Posted by Jeff Bohnhoff @ 2001 May 09 12:09 PM EST
Frodo yells "O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!" at them because it's an invocation of Elbereth, who is one of the Valar (Powers, good gods) of Middle-Earth. (We find out much more about them--probably more than we want to know--in the Silmarillion.) Elbereth, also known as Varda, is the consort of Manwe; the two of them function sort of like the holy, remote, never-quarreling Hera and Zeus of Middle-Earth's pantheon. Elbereth's greatest works were destroyed by Sauron's mentor, Morgoth, and she became an implacable foe of evil; this is one of the reasons why her name is a sort of "holy word" against evil things.
Posted by Randy Hoffman @ 2001 May 10 06:50 PM EST
Debbie,
To your question: 'He should store the Ring in such a way that it's harder to get to, shouldn't he?'
As the book continues, you'll appreciate the power and nature of the ring as it pertains to the world around it and the person who bears it. I've always considered it 'alive'. I've heard it described in Christian terms as the 'spirit' of some unholy trinity.
Posted by Patrick Burgess @ 2001 May 14 09:09 AM EST
Randy Hoffman-The Valar are not gods, they're angels. Illúvatar is the only god. Tolkien was a Christian, and much of his works, though not allegorical, have a lot of Christian truths in them.
Posted by Talierin @ 2001 May 16 08:31 PM EST
Tolkien does make mention at some point that the races of man mistook the Vala and Maia as gods, but yes indeed Illuvatar aka Eru is the only god. My favorite part of the The Silmarillion is the Ainulindale where the Vala and Maia sing the shape of the world and things to come. A great parralel of the host of heaven. Melko, like Lucifer took a third of the chorus with him.
Posted by J'nae Rae Campbell @ 2001 May 16 11:00 PM EST
Talierin: I know that Eru Iluvatar is technically "the only God" of Ea, the universe in which LOTR takes place. And yes, Tolkien was Christian (as am I), and the mythology of LOTR does reflect that. However, this doesn't change several important points: Iluvatar is *never mentioned* by name in LOTR (except for the Appendices), while several of the Valar are. The Valar participated in the creation of the world, which was not true of the angels. The Valar seem to allow themselves to be venerated, which angels do not. And from day one -- with the sole exception of the sinking of Numenor and reshaping of Arda -- Iluvatar made the Valar responsible for maintaining the world and being its final arbiters, rather than doing it directly himself, which is definitely not a responsibility that our Christian God ever gave to angels. In Ea, Iluvatar is indeed the One, but he seems to have allowed the Valar to be his agents, both acting in the world on his behalf and receiving indirect worship (or at least the kind of awed deference and supplication normally reserved for deities) on his behalf. Not an orthodox theology, unless possibly you consider the Valar to be super-powerful equivalents of the saints. However, as a melding of traditional Judeo-Christian montheism with classical European polytheism -- which is what I think Tolkien was aiming at in his original conception of "creating a mythology for England" -- I think it's at least fairly self-consistent.
Posted by Randy Hoffman @ 2001 May 18 03:45 PM EST
Patrick...I'm on Book IV now and I see what you mean about the Ring's power over those around it as well as the person wearing it.
Posted by Debbie @ 2001 May 24 09:42 AM EST
The Silmarils, as someone said, yes, do play a rather large part in the Silmarillion. They were great jewels created by the elf Feanor, a member of the Noldor race in Valinor. They were said to contain the light of the two trees (Laurelin and Telperion), and "Hold the fate of the world". Their story is one of tragedy. Feanor becomes jealous and covets them, holding them in a fortress in Formenos. But when they are stolen by Melkor, he wants to go retrieve them... I won't spoil any more of it, maybe I've said to much... Anyway, they are extremely important. Beren and Luthien are just two strings twined together around those gems.
Posted by Glen @ 2001 Jun 01 01:41 PM EST
Randy:
You said:
"And from day one -- with the sole exception of the sinking of Numenor and reshaping of Arda -- Iluvatar made the Valar responsible for maintaining the world."
Actually, there is one other exception, where Iluvatar became directly involved in the events of Middle-Earth. He is the one responsible for Gandalf's resurrection and return.
Posted by Don @ 2001 Jun 01 02:07 PM EST
Don, is that made explicitly clear in some other book or something? AFAIK, that's certainly a possibility, but in LOTR it's only implied. The text only says "Naked I was sent back..."; it doesn't identify *who* sent him back. If the spirits of dead Maiar go to the Halls of Mandos as the souls of the Children of Iluvatar do, it could be that the Valar (or some subset thereof including Mandos) sent him back. But the fact that Gandalf says "I wandered far on dark roads that I will not tell..." leads me to believe that his spirit did, for a time, leave Ea or at least Arda -- which would make Iluvatar the logical choice for being responsible for resurrecting him.
Posted by Randy Hoffman @ 2001 Jun 01 05:07 PM EST
Think of the ring as a full needle of heroin to a desprate drug addict. Or maybe a SNICKERS bar to a starving woman. It just.... c a l l s . I think of it like being when I've got a full box of Chips Ahoy! cookies. And I can't eat just one. They call from afar "You k n o w you want meeee."
Posted by Nemuro @ 2001 Jun 02 02:05 AM EST
The valar and maiar were 'spirits of great power' rather than 'angels. Maybe its just me.. but there seems to be a difference In particular, when I think of an angel, I think of a being that carries out the will of god. The valar acted on their own, with their own wills and desires, making their own descision. I may be remembering things wrong.. but I dont believe Illuvatar actualy 'sent' any of the valar or maiar into middle-earth. After Melkor went there, others followed to deal with his disruptions.
Posted by tom @ 2001 Jun 03 12:11 AM EST
Randy.
Tolkien himself makes it clear that it was Eru who sent Gandalf back. This is from one of his letters in "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien". Unfortunately, its been a while since I read it, and I don't have my copy here, so I can't point you towards the exact letter.
By the way, to anyone interesting in learning more about Tolkien himself, his times, and his works, I recommend "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien".
Posted by Don @ 2001 Jun 04 02:27 PM EST
Excerpt from the Ainulindale found in the "The Silmarillion:"
Then there was unrest among the Ainur; but Iluvatar called to them, and said: 'I know the desire of your minds tahat what ye have seen should verily be, not only in your thought, but even as ye yourselves are, and yet other. Therefor I say: Ea! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it.' And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame; and they knew that this was no vision only. but that Iluvatar had made a new thing: Ea, the world that Is.
Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Iluvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Iluvatar and descended into it. But this condition Iluvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforth be contained and bound in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefor they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.
The above was straight from "The Silmarillion." I unfortunately don't know how to make the symbols above the vowels, so it is not perfect.
If you read the "Ainulindale" in the "The Silmarillion" you will find that they Valar and the Maiar are the ones who shaped the world first. Everytime they had done something they deemed good and ready for the first born(elves, man being the second born) Melkor would plot to destroy it. Melkor or Morgoth entered the Arda after the rest of the Valar and Maiar. Not before.
Posted by J'nae Rae Campbell @ 2001 Jun 04 06:26 PM EST
you've got 2 realize that different denominations of christianity belive slightly differnt. also, tolkien was cathlic and probably didn't want to make the religion of middle earth sound to teribbly akin to his cathlic beliefs but at the same time implying several common christian princapals. i picture elbereth as the middle-earth equivlent to the arch-angel michael. just like michael is the protector of israel, elbereth is the protector of middle earth.
Posted by vikki @ 2001 Jun 27 01:56 PM EST
