AUGH.
I confess I feel the same way about the poetry (even though I like poets). A poll: How many of you Tolkienites actually read through each of the poems completely? I gave up, and now just skim the long poetry passages when they come up. This is the opposite method from my friend David B., who knows many of the LOTR poems by heart.
Anyway, I can understand a couple poems being thrown in just to give a flavour of hobbit poetry, etc., but there are SO MANY. My theory is that Tolkien was a frustrated poet. Jeff recently unearthed some of his Tolkien collection...I had no idea he was such a Tolkien fan. He has several editions of the trilogy and also various other books about and by Tolkien, such as the one below:
From what I can tell, the above book is a collection of just some of the poems in LOTR. Needless to say, I did not read it. I considered keeping the following Tolkien companion with me for the rest of the trilogy:
but decided not to, in case any of the entries included spoiler information.
Anyway, I'm glad I finally made it to the end of the chapter. And I do have somewhat more respect for Frodo, since he was given the option of abandoning the quest on the last page of the chapter, but decided to take on the task freely of his own will.
Hope the next chapter isn't quite as dry...
Replies: 28 comments
Me, I've read through all the poetry in LOTR and I enjoy it. I just think it's cool to see the poetic traditions between all the different races, the differences in cadence and language depending on what tradition the poem is coming from (comparing a hobbit poem to an elf poem to a dwarf poem, etc..). It's a major part of the culture of Middle Earth.
Yeah, I just re-read "The Council of Elrond" myself recently and realized that both you and John would be screaming in horror when you got there :). John's finding it more interesting than you did, though. There is a lot of important info there, but don't be too caught up in feeling you have to memorize all the historical details there, you don't. Important info will be retold as you need it as the book goes on. Basically Ring is bad, must be destroyed as it could entrap all the peoples of Middle Earth and Frodo has had the courage to agree to the quest to Mordor to destroy it. Everything else you can figure out as you go along and the Fellowship does hit the road in the next chapter and things become more character and plot-driven again. Actually, "The Council of Elrond", like the Prologue, is one of those chapters that can often be more interesting in retrospective after finishing the book than totally absorbed now. But you will not come across a chapter with so much exposition again, mercifully, for the rest of the book :). I can see why your friend is fond of it, but plunge ahead- there's some major exciting adventure right around the corner.
In fact, at the Cannes Film Festival this weekend they've been showing a 25 minute montage of the three LOTR movies and they have been a hit of the festival. A fourteen minute clip of a major scene from towards the end of Fellowship (about 2 chapters from where you are) is electrifying the critics with the drama, excitement, and breath-taking special effects (one Toronto critic said simply, "Lucas, watch your back"). They can't rave enough. I hope they're right! Do I really have to wait until December to see this movie???
Enough rambling... keep going, girl. You'll be rewarded.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 May 12 08:14 PM EST
Debbie,
You have just been through probablly the most exposition that you will find in one chunk, in the whole epic story!!
Many of the fans who have expressed some concern over how Peter Jackson is going to handle the move from book to film, have been essentially choking over the amount of exposition that is needed.
In film, exposition can be a real killer for an audience...especially if it is done as "The Masterfull Voice Over" (which I personnaly find distatseful and childish).
The Council of Elrond has been altered from the structure shown in the book for the film (and no I will NOT tell you why I say that). The altered structure should solve the problem of exposition to a large degree. There does still exist the possibility that the uninitiated in the audience for the film, will like yourself, struggle to get all the names and refernces in order. But I think that PJ has 'in the can' the best way possible that I could think of, to achieve this without confusion.
After the Council of Elrond the action in the Fellowship really starts to heat up.
In the movie I think that the Weathertop scenes will have the 'action and danger' element clearly defined, but I don't think it will have anywhere near the 'impending doom and evil' elements that will be drawn out in the next few chapters coming up.
You are starting to get to the part of the books in the Fellowship that many fans love and re-read, and also the passages in the chapters that cause the most heated debates.
Take a deep breath at the beginning of some of the chapters coming up, because you may find yourself holding it in places.
TTFN
Rallas
Posted by Rallas @ 2001 May 13 03:52 AM EST
Truth to tell Debbie it depends. Sometimes I will read just the poetry, other times i'll skim through. As soon as I can find my Copy I plan of re-reading and this time I'm going to read right through. There is a lot of talking going on, it's a good foundation for what lies ahead. Don't worry if you can't remember all the details.
Posted by Heather @ 2001 May 13 12:42 PM EST
As a science fiction writer, I always felt pangs of guilt that I'd only read The Hobbit and not Lord of The Rings. The gap in my "education" left me feeling like some kind of fraud. Just a few months ago I decided I had to read it, if only to check it off my mental list and feel "legitimate".
To be honest, I don't know how many people have actually read all three LOTR books. It's like Citizen Kane - everyone thinks it has to be at number one on those top 100 lists, but how many people have looked at it objectively? From the amount of exposition, and the lack of real character development, I honestly could not see LOTR being published, if it was written today. Somehow, because it's a "classic" it endures.
The other horrible thing is that fantasy and science fiction writers read The Hobbit or parts of LOTR and think that's how they should write - pages of exposition, long winded speeches, purple prose, 99 per cent male characters and ... poetry.
Debbie - I could only waste so much of my time. I trudged through the Fellowship before I decided life was just too short. If you can get through all three, I'll be amazed.
Posted by Ebony @ 2001 May 13 07:11 PM EST
Debbie,
I had a feeling you would react this way to this chapter. However, it's actually one of my favorites. I don't mind conversation, as long as it's interesting, and I just find the interweaving threads dealt with here quite fascinating. For me, this chapter is like a doorway into the real significance of the Ring and what's at risk for Middle Earth. I think that this may be more the case if you've already read the entire story. In any case, Allison is exactly right, if any of the details don't stick with you now, they'll be mentioned again as needed later.
Posted by Jeff Bohnhoff @ 2001 May 14 03:21 PM EST
It was a confusing to me the first time I read the book as well. Yet the second time I read the book, I think it was one of the greatest chapters in the entire story, because it explains so many events in the book.
Posted by Martijn @ 2001 May 16 08:14 AM EST
Well.... I would say if the poetry and songs are bogging you down, just skip them! I have re-read the books several times, and sometimes I skip most of them.. I find that sometimes they just "get in the way".
Good luck! you have got through some of the drier stuff... get ready for a faster pace..
Posted by Palladin @ 2001 May 16 08:32 AM EST
The council of elrond *is* one of the greatest chapters, as far as answering many questions I had when first reading the books. As far as the poetry, I made myself read them all, when I was very awake and could focus, because I didn't want to miss out on any detail of the story. With subsequent readings I allow myself to skim, but I read what poems I choose now. I really think you should read them once to enjoy all of what Tolkien was trying to share.
Posted by Fatty Lumpkin @ 2001 May 16 09:58 AM EST
Wow, I was really disappointed at the first half of the responses to this chapter. As a many-time reader of LOTR, this chapter has, over the years, become my favorite in the entire trilogy. I actually get goosebumps when Elrond talks about being present at the Last Allience between Men and Elves. Give this chapter another chance, after you have finished the books, and reread it.
Posted by Ithilien @ 2001 May 16 12:54 PM EST
I agree with Ithilien-- "The Council of Elrond" is my single favorite chapter in LOTR. Yes, it's all conversation-- but the characters' voices are distinct, and Tolkien's handling of them is masterful.
As far as Ebony's comments go-- I agree 100% that trying to imitate Tolkien is a huge mistake. But the fact that his imitators don't have Tolkien's knowledge of the English language or of the detail of the invented world doesn't take away from Tolkien's accomplishment, IMO.
Posted by Aelfscyne @ 2001 May 16 03:35 PM EST
As far as the poetry goes, I tried something this last time I read the series (just finished ROTK yesterday), and it helped me finally read through all the poems. I read them all to the tune of "Greensleeves". It sounds stupid, I know, but most (if not all) of the poems and songs have the kind of flow that needs to be sung more than read. Give it a shot, it may work for ya!
Posted by Chris H. @ 2001 May 16 09:32 PM EST
Just as a word of warning, most serious "Tolkien scholars" don't have a great deal of trust in Tyler's _Tolkien Companion_: it isn't always accurate, and it's often not clear what portions of each entry are merely Tyler's own ideas rather than Tolkien's direct statements. (The same goes for just about anything by David Day.) One trustworthy reference book (that Tolkien's son Christopher has used himself) is _The Complete Guide to Middle-earth_ by Robert Foster.
On the other hand, your decision not to read books like these to avoid spoilers is almost certainly the right one: every one that I've seen assumes that you have read at least _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_, and usually _The Silmarillion_ as well.
Oh, and for the record, I think that this is the most "fact-heavy" part of the book until the Appendices, which you will probably want to skip entirely (although you'd probably enjoy the part of Appendix A that tells more about Aragorn and Arwen).
Posted by Steuard Jensen @ 2001 May 17 12:55 AM EST
I found all these comments *highly* interesting, and definitely plan to go back and re-read this chapter once I'm finished the first reading of the books.
Posted by Debbie @ 2001 May 24 09:49 AM EST
The first time I read LOTR, I got stuck in this chapter and ended up quitting. In retrospect, I should have skipped it...at age twelve, you don't have much patience for that sort of thing.
Posted by Teshi @ 2001 Jun 01 01:32 AM EST
I have a built-in Tolkein Poetry filter. Anything in italics gets passed over, with the exception of the "One Ring to rule the all..." which I think is a masterful piece of verse and is going to sound very creepy when Gandalf says it in the black speech at the council. I completely agree with all the other comments that this chapter makes more sense on a re-read.
Posted by Anthony @ 2001 Jun 01 04:04 AM EST
Interesting...I find the 'exposition' chapters like this and 'Shadow of the Past' fascinating. I tend to have quite a good memory for the historical stuff, which helps.
Posted by Keith Fraser @ 2001 Jun 01 05:42 AM EST
I'm another one who loves the backstory. One of the things I like most about LoTR (and always has) is how much stuff there is 'behind' the main story, and how that gives Middle Earth a depth and sense of history lacking in many Fantasy books. Perhaps thats why some people find themselves liking this chapter the second time round; they thing, 'ah, that's how it tied in then'.
As for the poetry...in the Tom Bombadil book, do read The Last Ship for a taste of the sorrow of Middle Earth at the ultimately unbreachable differences between elves and men. And tho' I tend to only read some of the LoTR poetry, I have read all of 'Beren and Luthien' - but then, it's a great story.
Posted by Catherine McKiernan @ 2001 Jun 01 11:26 AM EST
Part of the lure of Tolkien is the depth and scope of the world he created. It's amazing that he created so much history to back up the languages he created and then these stories which came out of that.
That depth is what can bog people down and it really shows up in this chapter and also in all the poetry. I used to skip a lot of the poetry and don't think it hurt the story any. But having recently finished the Silmarillion (for the second time) and then re-reading the LOTR for the 8-10th time, I actually enjoyed the poetry more this time, because I understood more of the references.
That is why people continue to re-read these books (e.g. Christopher Lee - Saruman in the movies, claims to read them once a year). Because as someone said earlier, every time I read them I pick up on something new/different.
Posted by Royce Wilkinson @ 2001 Jun 01 12:19 PM EST
I liked that chapter! It tells so many stories... I read the poetry, yes, and though I don't really go in for most poetry, I did enjoy it.
Posted by Glen @ 2001 Jun 01 01:50 PM EST
My kids begged me to skip the council of Elrond when I read the LOTR out loud to them. Of course, they were only 7 and 4 years old...I think we did skip ahead a little at this point.
Posted by Karen @ 2001 Jun 01 04:07 PM EST
Well, I've read the books several times, like 30 times...and yes, I've only read the prologue the last 3 times or so and the poems the last 2-3 times. :)) It's only when I've gotten used to the books and fully understands everything that I feel the need to dive deeper, so to speak. I might even read Silmarillion sometime. ;)
Jennix
Posted by Jenny @ 2001 Jun 08 11:20 AM EST
I am reading FOTR for the first time and I am glad that I found this site. I have been stuck on this horrendous chapter for the last two days and I was worried that I might end up quitting. Now I see that others have had the same plight and I am refreshed. :)
Posted by boba_jeff @ 2001 Jun 09 11:43 PM EST
Debbie,
Thanks to TheOneRing.net I discovered your very interesting and informative (not to mention entertaining) site. It's great to see someone reading LOTR for the first time and sharing their thoughts - how many of us would love to be have that experience of reading it for the first time again.
The 'Council of Elrond' chapter was one that I actually liked and read through - it had a lot of vital information as far as I was concerned.
But I am a little pedantic, I read through _each and every one_ of the poems (although it got a little tedious at times!) because I wanted to read it "properly" at least once! It's a strange thing about this book - you cannot dip into to it on a first read, yet it is too difficult to just read non-stop. I used to be up until 4am some mornings, reading it the first time. And the poetry can sometimes be atmospheric, although I thought the tale of Beren and Luthien completely inappropriate in that chapter!
Hearing Gandalf say the Ring verse in the Common Speech and the Black Tongue will be thrilling - if I can get Sir Michael Hordern's voice out of my head!
I look forward to reading the reast of your comments on further chapters...I hope you persevere and good luck!
Posted by Upulie @ 2001 Jun 10 01:45 AM EST
Again, obviously I am odd. I love exposition and bare hints of larger history. I thrive on figuring out what words mean from context. And I read through the Council of Elrond like a shot the first time, then went back and read it again 'cause it was So COOOOL!
I read the comments here and realize I have always been a language geek, and much more of one than I thought. I mean, the only places that ever stopped me reading were a) after the Birthday Party, as a 1st grader, when I realized this was not a fun kid's book like The Hobbit, and b) when the Black Riders first showed up, when I tried again 6 months later and found out that LOTR was still a scarier book than I was prepared to tackle. As a second grader, however, I was much braver and read the book straight through in, oh, a couple of days.
Well, I had to. My two years' older brother kept giving me a hard time about not having read it yet, and my one year younger brother Kevin was thinking of starting it, so I had to stay ahead of him.
(It was my dad's trilogy. One of the many reprints of the first authorized US edition, with the god-awful purple, red and magenta covers.)
As for the poetry -- I loved it early and often, and I have my own tunes for practically everything. I think I started making up tunes about the 6th or 7th time I read the book, which would make me 12 or 13 back then. Realizing that I could make up my own poetry _with_ a tune was my next step into filk.
Posted by Maureen @ 2001 Jun 15 10:02 PM EST
I'm a Tolkien poetry junkie!
Every poem, every song, I stop and read. This is because I'm a Tolkien language junkie. Read his prose aloud. Though a bit ponderous at times, there is a rhythm and a cadence to it that's beautiful.
I'd forgetten, this re-read, that the Council of Elrond is one of those sticking points. Argh! Yes, it's a struggle. That and the ents. The first time I tried to read this book I had more trouble with the ents than Elrond. The second attempt (succeeded) Elrond was fine and the ents slow but doable. This time I'm shoving through Elrond and actually looking forward to the ents.
This is as far as I've re-read this summer--now I can come comment chapter by chapter, instead of playing "catch up" (I've really enjoyed reading everyone's comments and hearing Debbie's spontaneous reactions; it's giving me further insight into this complicated work).
Posted by constance @ 2001 Jul 03 10:15 AM EST
The poems certainly aren't there just to fill up pages. They reflect mood, character, etc. I don't understand what good skipping over anything does.... especially in this chapter when all those questions you've been asking in the first chapters are finally answered. To answer your question about what is important: "Everything." There's nothing in Tolkien that's just there. I don't get why this was rough chapter for you. It was always one of my favorites because so much is finally answered and the quest is defined at last! Oh well, to each his own!
Posted by GEM @ 2001 Jul 05 02:56 AM EST
I have to say that I don't remember exactly what my reaction was to any *particular* part of LOTR when I first read it (at age 14). What I *do* remember is that I'd read The Hobbit the year before, liked it, but was a little put off by the sheer size of the trilogy. Finally I decided to go ahead and check it out of the library, because I could always take it back if I didn't like it. Got home with it, and it proceeded to grab me by the throat and drag! Fortunately for me, it was summer break; I literally *could not* put the book down except to eat, use the bathroom, or (reluctantly!) sleep. I finished the entire trilogy in three days, and then promptly went back to the beginning and read straight thru it again. Obviously there was nothing about the Council of Elrond that I found off-putting!
Posted by Celine @ 2001 Aug 05 08:26 PM EST
The first time I read LOTR, I really had problems with this chapter also. I think it took a half dozen attempts to get through about 10 pages. It was especially difficlut because I hadn't read The Hobbit first (that would've helped somewhat).
In future readings (I think I've read the trilogy close to 20 times now), I picked up a lot of things in the council that I'd missed before.
Posted by David @ 2001 Aug 28 06:30 AM EST
