Love the intrigue and suspense in this chapter.
"Wormtongue" is a great name though I have to say that if someone named Wormtongue came to ask for work, I'd probably say no just on the basis of his nickname. Sort of like seeing "Igor The Evil" on a resume...just doesn't make a good first impression, y'know? Though I take it Wormtongue used magic to worm his way (no pun intended) into Theoden's good graces so quickly.
Was somewhat taken aback by the spark between Aragorn and Eowyn. Hey, what about the spark between him and Arwen? Has he forgotten her so quickly?? Hmph. But I've learned my lesson from previous chapters...I won't condemn Aragorn and will just wait and see. Have to say that I'm not too crazy about these quiet and meek Tolkien women who tremble silently (or relatively silently) in the presence of such a "manly man" as Aragorn. But I'll shut up now; I'm sure Arwen and/or Eowyn will prove their mettle eventually, and I'll have to take my foot out of mouth yet again.
Anyway, Galadriel's independence and vibrant personality certainly helps balance the presence of the doe-women. Galadriel's very cool. I want more Galadriel!
Wonderfully sinister description of Wormtongue just before he flees, the clear snake reference, the fact that the guards rush to wash the stones which Wormtongue spat upon.
Replies: 21 comments
It'll be interesting to see Brad Douriff portray Wormtongue in the film - he's very good at playing baddies.
Posted by Dom @ 2001 May 21 07:41 AM EST
Yes. Sam rocks. Gimli rocks. Eowyn rocks. And this site really rocks.
One of the criticisms of Tolkien is his lack of female characterization. Although one of the more contentious issues of the films is their attempt to address this. It seems that the films are going to place more emphasis on the female characters. Some are horrified that this means that there will be major narrative changes from the books.
One of my favorite aspects of this site is seeing that the parts you find noteworthy are the scenes I remember most vividly. (Sam diving for Frodo’s boat.) While there are some wonderful big scenes coming up the scenes I like the best are the little ones. A shared pipe. A sympathetic glance. A simple meal. These moments are what make me love this book.
I haven’t read LotR for years, although I did go through a period where I read it every year for about four or five years in a row. I think I just might....
Posted by Dean @ 2001 May 21 08:31 AM EST
But I'll shut up now; I'm sure Arwen and/or Eowyn will prove their mettle eventually, and I'll have to take my foot out of mouth yet again.
You're beginning to see straight through Tolkien, aren't you !!!
About the spark... you seem not to have read very attentively.
Greg
Posted by Tirno @ 2001 May 21 09:22 AM EST
Just another historical aside -- in early drafts, Tolkien was not sure exactly who Aragorn would wind up with, and I think you still see an echo of that early ambiguity in this chapter.
Posted by Janet Croft @ 2001 May 21 09:28 AM EST
Yes, Brad Douriff ought to be good. He was in a couple of early episodes of Star Trek: Voyager, and gave a chilling portrayal of a psychotic killer who, in a surprisingly good plot twist for what I found a disappointing series, manages to redeem himself.
Posted by Janet Croft @ 2001 May 21 09:30 AM EST
I've always heard people comment about the lack of Women roles in Tolkien's books, but I acutally think that Tolkien gave us our fair share.
He made the woman's role in here more subtle for a majority of the book, then towards the very end women start to have such a great role that you realize all along the way: Nothing could have been accomplished without the much needed help of certain women in this story! You'll especially see that in the final battle, which I can't divulge now. But every character in his books somehow niches themselves into the story so that without their aid: all would be lost. And that goes for the women too.
Personally, I'm flattered that rather than huffing and puffing about (and under) the countryside like men, Tolkien's woman instead conqueor evils through grace, intelligence, wisdom, inner beauty, and great strength. None of this torture and wallowing in the forest stuff. As a career woman I've never been threatened by Tolkien's mideval approach in his stories and I frankly don't know what all the hubub is about. Besides, when you read on, you'll see one particular heroine save the day and frankly, I don't know what more a woman could have done than save the day! There's my two bits!
Posted by Tinuviel @ 2001 May 21 09:45 AM EST
Don't worry Debbie; you'll discover that Eowyn is far from a "weak woman."
About the name Wormtongue - it is not his real name - that is the one he would put on that job application. His name is Grima - Wormtongue is what he is called by those who see through his lies.
Posted by Charly @ 2001 May 21 10:01 AM EST
I laughed so loudly at your "take my foot out of my mouth" comment I woke the whole house!
In this case...boy, will you!
Posted by Paul Mendenhall @ 2001 May 21 10:14 AM EST
Debbie,
A lot of mention has been made of the small numbers of women in LOTR. Consider Tolkien's day to day life, a member of an all male faculty (as far as I know) at an all male school. And, seeing he was a devout Catholic, let me mention this: twenty years after LOTR was written my local Catholic high school had pink hallways for the girls, and blue for the boys, and one (in green) where they might both be; and that the local Catholic University for men was placed a mere mile's walk away from the one for women. It's not surprising that Tolien's representations of relations between men and women was written about in a most circumspect manner.
Yet, as you have seen with Galadriel, and will see from Eowyn, women are not incidental character's in LOTR.
Greg denby
Posted by Greg Denby @ 2001 May 21 11:38 AM EST
I think, when discussing women in Tolkien's LOTR, one should focus not so much on Tolkien's life, but on the world he was portraying. He was writing about a mythical age in the distant past. In _that_ world, you didn't see women all that often doing things like going off to war and so on, the traditionally male types of things to do. Does that really warrant criticism? I think not. Even today you don't see many women going to war or in combat roles, even in a "modern" country like the USA. Only very recently has that begun to change.
The fact that Tolkien didn't put a lot of women in those type of roles in LOTR does not mean that he felt they were inferior or anything of the sort. And in fact, as you read carefully and think about it, I believe you will come to realize that Tolkien was very forward thinking in many respects, even in regards to women's roles. Pay careful attention to the few women you meet in LOTR.
Posted by Ufthak @ 2001 May 21 12:47 PM EST
Nice comic! I look forward to seeing more in the future! There's always been critcism of Tolkien's work as being sexist/racist/classist. Personally, I think people must have a rather large axe to grind if they can't simply take LOTR at face value. It is a mythic saga, not a social commentary. Sam's devotion to Frodo is misconstrued as a servant's submission to his master. Ugly black Uruks from mordor and men from the south are seen as condemning non-caucasians. And if there's no equal Xena:Aragorn ratio, women are seen as undervalued. I can't overemphasize the importance of these issues, but I think one has to really go looking for something wrong if they think LOTR is discriminatory.
ps. Mercy! Debbie is smart. She can figure things out. Don't HINT at things please!!!! For everyone's sake.
Posted by Phil @ 2001 May 21 02:00 PM EST
As far as Grima Wormtongue goes, I'm not sure it's an entirely derogatory name. There's a saga about an Icelandic poet called Gunnlaugur Ormstungu-- Wormtongue or Snake's Tongue-- where it's clear the name was meant with some respect.
Posted by Aelfscyne @ 2001 May 21 02:07 PM EST
I agree with Phil! We should all be careful of spoilers. I know how easy it can be to get carried away with participating in the journey, but people are giving major hints that are starting to colour how Debbie is looking at the rest of the story.
It's fun to hash out where she's already been, but let's be careful with what we say about where she's going.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 May 21 03:21 PM EST
Oh, c'mon Debbie, you've heard the song:
Now I'm supposed to marry Arwen
The fairy queen of the Saturday Night
But until then, give me Eowyn
And I'll blow out her Northern lights
*grin*
Thirded on the spoilers folks. Please be careful what you give away! What seems like a subtle and innocuous comment may color how events upcoming are read!
Rob
Posted by Rob Wynne @ 2001 May 21 03:39 PM EST
Another comment on the sexism/racism issue. Tolkien's book may have been a veiled social commentary, but took place in a very unenlightened time. He couldn't get away with obvious ways to show people of different races and gender getting along, so he used men,dwarves,hobbits, etc... It's been mentioned in these comments that the general theme (or at least one of them) is that the characters aren't always what they seem at first. The characters in the book, and the readers, are given a kind of stereotypical first look at each character, as a representative of his race (i.e. Strider as "the man", Gimli "the dwarf", and Legolas "the elf". They each have elements of the races they represent, but as the story goes on we and the other characters get to know them as more than their labels. If there's anything this book showed or taught me it was to reserve judgement on others until you have walked in their shoes.
There's a great line in LOTR (my favorite actually), which kind of sums up the theme; thankfully it took place in Book I, Chapter 2 so I can't spoil anything. Frodo and Gandalf were discussing Gollum and the Ring. Frodo: "I can't understand you. Do you mean to say that you, and the Elves, have let him live on after all those horrible deeds? Now at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death."
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it."
If this idea isn't a social commentary, I don't know what is With the upcoming radical, civil rights 60's around the corner, this book could be said to be ahead of its time. Can you tell I'm a social worker?
Thanks for bearing with analysis.
Posted by Roland @ 2001 May 21 10:09 PM EST
The depiction of women in Tolkien has been long debated. Over time, I have come to see Eowyn in this chapter as so perceptive, she sees that there is more to Aragorn than the travel-weary Ranger.
Also while the men gallop off to war, Eowyn is left with the no less formidable task of protecting and leading a fleeing population.
Duty, loyalty, and responsibility (while possibly less glamorous) are very admired traits in LOTR.
Comparing, for example, Boromir, Sam, and the Ents, I see Eowyn's duty to her people as part of a recurring theme of LOTR -- strength and courage come in many guises and are not always measured by skill with weapons.
Posted by Tish @ 2001 May 22 10:47 PM EST
Don't worry. The tolkien women who are "trembling" will prove themselves soon enough, and you'll think of them as anything but weak.
Posted by Glen @ 2001 Jun 01 02:38 PM EST
Brad Douriff makes a superb villan in Myst 3- Exile, that's for sure!
Posted by Doug @ 2001 Jun 01 03:05 PM EST
_Where_ is that song from?? Enquiring minds want to know.
As for the Tolkien's women thing, just wait; Eowyn herself puts it better than any of us in a great speech that I _hope_ will be in the film just so all the non-tolkien reading critics can complain about it being anachronistic, when it's genuine Tolkien. (For those of you who've read, I mean of course the bit beginning 'All your words..')And Arwen, too, is incredibly brave.
On another note, try the Tolkien Sarcasm page's magnificent 'Arwen vs. Luthien: which is the better babe?' (Beware spoilers)
Incidentally, anyone who does want to read about independent Medieval women (in an non-David Eddings way) try Mary Gentle's 'Ash' - fantastic riff on history and historical forces.
Posted by Catherine McKiernan @ 2001 Jun 04 10:28 AM EST
Roland, you are so right about Gandalf's comments on execution. With all the hype about McVeigh you wonder if it is not Evil exulting rather than Good. We can't give life back to his victims. Why should we be so quick to execute even a deserving person like him? I can see some argue that many Elves lost their lives (and immortal lives at that) because they did not execute Gollum but imprisoned him instead.
Posted by dave @ 2001 Jun 09 06:56 AM EST
We learn later why Eowyn is so timid here. You'll be laughing later at saying she seems weak!
Posted by GEM @ 2001 Jul 05 03:29 AM EST
