Good for Gandalf, telling Ingold off for doubting Pippin. I had to laugh at Pippin's indignation at being called a man, though. :-)
I don't like Denethor. It's revealing that he openly wishes that Boromir had not gone, and that Faramir had gone instead, as if part of this was Faramir's fault. I'm glad Gandalf pointed out the unjustness of his statement.
Pippin seemed to handle himself remarkably well, didn't he? I was quite impressed by him offering his services to Denethor, though I do hope he doesn't end up regretting it. Wow, has he ever matured since the early books. Part of me misses the light-hearted, irresponsible Pippin, but I also realize that this change was inevitable and necessary, given the gravity of the situation.
Interesting that (according to Gandalf) Denethor has some mind-reading abilities.
Pretty tense anticipatory atmosphere, sort of like the ominous stillness just before the storm.
I'm not sure how many reports I'll be posting over the next few days because I'll have a friend visiting from Cincinnati until Sunday night. I don't want to get fully back into the story while she's here, else I'll be likely to turn into a rude hostess and start ignoring her because I've gotten too engrossed with Middle Earth adventuring. :-) Some of you have been sending in some great suggestions for my comic, however, so I'll likely still be updating that.
Replies: 128 comments
Book V is in "The Return of the King", not "Two Towers" :)
Keep up the good work, I'm enjoying this!
Posted by Jonathan @ 2001 May 31 09:08 AM EST
Shouldn't this be "Return of the King: BOOKK V" ??
:)
Posted by Mark @ 2001 May 31 09:09 AM EST
whoops, you're both right, thanks...I'll correct that now.
Posted by Debbie @ 2001 May 31 09:24 AM EST
Sentimental fool that I am the other thing that always hits me at this point in LOTR is that the four hobbits are separated from each other completely for the first time in the saga what with Gandalf dragging Pippin halfway across the Western lands from Merry and the orcs separating Sam from Frodo. Just makes them seem that much more vulnerable, though clearly it serves the story and the characters well.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 May 31 10:05 AM EST
I really enjoy the adversarial (sp???) interraction between Denethor and Gandalf. One almost gets the feeling that, in a battle of powerful minds, Denethor gives Gandalf a run for his money (and gives you a real sense for just how powerful the Numenoreans, who Denethor is just a distant descendant of, must've been). Hope you're able to get back to LoTR soon, though, Deb. Can't wait to see your reactions as book 5 kicks into gear!
Posted by Nathan @ 2001 May 31 10:21 AM EST
I guess if you are going to take a break reading LoTR, this is a good place to do so. Belive me, it gets harder and harder to put the book down from here on in.
Denthor is a great character, and his favouritism of Boromir over Faromir is interesting. I hope the movie (in 2003 sigh) conveys how powerful and scary Denthor can be.
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 May 31 10:29 AM EST
Aaak! No! I need my fix! This is really the next best thing to being able to read it again for the first time! Well, I hope your friend is a Tolkien fan and you have wonderful conversations about the books and she doesn't give anything away....
Posted by Janet Croft @ 2001 May 31 10:39 AM EST
Just a thought.....you should change the heading from "Reading LoTR, the final attempt" to "Reading LoTR, the First Time"
It would be interesting to see a weblog for reading it a 2nd time. (wink wink)
It's going to be a long six months, followed by two long years.
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 May 31 11:54 AM EST
Here's a link to the actor who'll be playing Denethor: http://www.theonering.net/movie/cast/noble.html. I can't say I've ever seen him in anything -- I don't know if he looks quite "right" to me just from his publicity photo. Seems to me he should be more gaunt from his worries and obsessions.
Posted by Janet Croft @ 2001 May 31 12:05 PM EST
Janet- I'll be hanging out with Deb tonight and on Saturday, too, but I know at least one person who'll be with us hasn't read LOTR (and doesn't intend to :)) so there probably won't be much Tolkien talk. Too bad, I really enjoyed my dinner with Deb last week when we talked Tolkien, but there was still so much that I couldn't say! You can bet I'll be setting up another dinner like that when she gets to the end of ROTK :). This weekend will be for baby talk and music (our visiting friend is both a new mom and a fellow musician).
Posted by Allison @ 2001 May 31 12:09 PM EST
While some of the commentors have posted various images from the movies which went along with the chapter you were reading, Calisuri just emailed me about this site.
Essentially, that site goes through the books chapter by chapter, and shows images from the movies by chapter. A very nice site.
Posted by Corvar @ 2001 May 31 12:56 PM EST
The relationship between Gandalf and Pippin is one of the more charming ones in LOTR. No one else has the nerve to pester Gandalf the way Pippin does, and boy does it get under his skin! (Some of my favorite lines in this regard are in FOTR: "Knock on the doors with your head, Peregrin Took!" "Throw yourself in next time...!")
Nevertheless - and maybe because of this - Gandalf has a real affection for Pippin, and goes out of his way to protect him and keep him near him. He is even responsible for Pippin's being with them at all; remember, Elrond did his best to prevent his going! Perhaps he depends on Pippin's needling to keep himself humble, and stop him from being too serious all the time.
I also think it is interesting that Merry doesn't really emerge as a character until he is separated from Pippin. Being more introverted, he tends to be overshadowed by Pippin, and to take something of a backseat to him, until forced to function on his own. (Can I relate to that! Their friendship is so like many of mine have been!)
Posted by Paul Mendenhall @ 2001 May 31 02:12 PM EST
Oh, I absolutely agree, Paul, it's crucial for both Merry and Pippin's characters and the story that they be split apart at this point. Besides giving Merry a chance to come into his own, Tolkien just seems to like having a hobbit in the thick of what's going on throughout the story and with the story opening up wide in ROTK, the hobbits have to get divided up, too.
But I always feel sorry for them at the beginning of this book, anyway, missing and worrying about each other, feeling a little lost on their own (especially when you're still dealing with the echoes of Sam hammering on the doors of Mordor trying to get back to Frodo just a chapter before :)). I like your description of the relationship between Pippin and Gandalf, I've never quite thought of it that way before :), but even still, Gandalf drops Pippin in Minas Tirith and then goes off doin' wizard stuff and leaves him mostly on his own and we end up with a parallel development for Merry, though being in the next chapter, I can't say. But, absolutely, both characters will grow tremendously from being apart.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 May 31 03:29 PM EST
Hey Deb,
Keep up the great work. Your observations are really the heart of what makes your log really keen. Your insights, and guesses and fears are really alot of fun to think on and have a good chuckle about (being good 'already-read-the-books-a-bazillion-times Tolkien geeks that we all seem to be). Take your time...the books will wait for you! ;)
Posted by Paul H @ 2001 May 31 04:35 PM EST
Debbie, I am having SUCH a good time reading your entries. The best thing about LoTR is that now that you've discovered it, it is yours for life. I first read it 28 years ago when I was 14, and I know that it will be a comforting friend to me even when I am ancient. It is a constant for me. I hope it will be the same for you.
Posted by Sirelle @ 2001 May 31 05:44 PM EST
Hi Debbie, and everyone else here!
I always thought that splitting Merry and Pippin at this point shows prof. Tolkiens excellent narrative technique. The epic is now divided into three separate storylines, and each of them has at least one hobbit in the centre or near centre. That way there is always someone more "human", if you know what I mean, for us readers to identify with. Someone who the Great and Mighty have to explain things to, someone who feels small and insignificant sometimes but shows a lot of courage when needed. And somenone who adds humour and common sense to all that drama and heroic deeds around them.
Take a break, Debbie, if you must, but please be back soon! I've gotten so used to checking in on this site every day now, and I will surely miss your daily comments.
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 May 31 06:59 PM EST
Katarina- Funny, your comment about how the hobbits "humanize" the story is almost exactly what I said to Deb in the early days. She was worried about the story being too much exposition or too epic for her taste and I found myself finally saying just that, if things get too grand for you any time the first read through stick with the hobbits- they're always around to ground the epic, they're highly accessible, sympathetic and lovable to the reader and a lot of fun. Also, there is at least one to bond with in just about every chapter of the trilogy.
Heh, twenty years later, even with all the wonderful, rich characters in LOTR, I still like the hobbits best.
And until Debbie comes back on Monday, it's more than fun for us to talk amongst ourselves :). (Debbie said at dinner tonight that it was cool to see us doing that more and more)
Posted by Allison @ 2001 May 31 09:17 PM EST
The formation of these little internet communities (whether short-lived or long-term) is always fun.
The use of the hobbits was a great narrative stroke on Tolkien's part. Sitting around making sure that the "Great" never take themselves too seriously. Pippin's comment about Gandalf making so many "cheerful" remarks in the days before the Fellowship left Rivendell is a great example.
But anyhow, Allison, I've noticed you mentioning that you're a musician (and Deb too). For my part, I am (or was, until recently) an aspiring professional oboist. Have you ever found any decent music setting any Tolkien texts? I've got the Swann song-book, but have always found all his settings to be pretty trite and ineffective (though Tolkien's appendices are great).
Posted by Nathan @ 2001 May 31 10:18 PM EST
I love these books so much- you are very lucky to be reading them for the first time! The suspense...
it is so hard not to tell you everything!
Posted by Sarah Outterson @ 2001 May 31 11:31 PM EST
I love these books so much- you are very lucky to be reading them for the first time! The suspense...
it is so hard not to tell you everything!
Posted by Sarah Outterson @ 2001 May 31 11:31 PM EST
Nathan:
You write:
"I've got the Swann song-book, but have always found all his settings to be pretty trite and ineffective"
Um, no accounting for taste, I suppose . There are many people, and myself amid them, who consider Swann's settings to be the definative. Furthermore, they're the only settings that Tolkien himself heard and approved of, so that makes them as close to authoritive we'll get as well.
Rob
Posted by Rob Wynne @ 2001 Jun 01 12:22 AM EST
I'm not familiar with the Swann song-book. Would someone tell me more about it and some background?
In general, I'm not too familiar with the assorted Tolkien song-cycles that are out there. I'm mostly familiar with the Tolkien-inspired songs of the filk music community I'm a part of, mainly because I tend to have a preference for accoustic folk music than to more formal settings. Filk singer/songwriter Leslie Fish wrote a lovely Tolkien-inspired song called "Fellowship Going South" that I've often sung through the years. To me, it captures perfectly the longing, fear, hope, determination and love of nature of the characters in LOTR. It's one of my favorite songs.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 01 12:58 AM EST
Is there anyplace to hear any examples on-line of this filk music that you've mentioned? I'd be interested to hear this Fellowship Going South song.
As for the Swann book, Swann is the singer/songwriter of a British comic duo called Flanders and Swann, a brilliant partnership responsible for such joys as "The Reluctant Cannibal" and "I'm a Gnu". Swann was also a huge Tolkien fan, and it occurred to him to set quite a number of Tolkien's songs/poems to music. Not great, but he actually talked through them with Tolkien himself. The book is out of print (sadly), though maybe the movies will lead to a release? Anyhow, the end is a fantastic discussion of two of the elvish poems, both Namarie and A Elbereth Gilthoniel, written by Tolkien soley for this volume. One of my personal goals is to write an orchestral setting of Namarie (in the style of G Mahler's balladic lieder). Anyhow, that's a good overview of the book. Who knows, you might still be able to find a copy buried somewhere! Its called "The Road Goes Ever On"
Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 01 01:49 AM EST
Okay, I have to jump in again. Has anyone here heard of Broceliande? I'm pretty sure this is filk music, but oh, how pretty! They've set many of Tolkien's poems from the Hobbit and LOTR to the most beautiful melodies. There is an album called the Starlit Jewel which I aspire to own - it is incredible! If you go to the website (www.broceliande.org) one can listen to 20 sec soundbytes. It is hard to choose a favorite among them, all, but I will say that the reproduction of the Lay of Nimrodel is just how I imagined it - hauntingly sweet and sad at once. There is the famous hobbit walking song, "The Little Old Inn", which caused Frodo to put his foot in it - "or should I say your finger?!" One can also find the Children's Song from Dale - remember it in the Hobbit? They sing of gold flowing from the Lonely Mountain when the Mountain King returns...
Check it, out, you'll love it!
Posted by Laural Shelton @ 2001 Jun 01 02:41 AM EST
You better boil the kettle cause from here on in I spent days in a row of reading without any sleep, just a few 1 hour breaks every so often. It's good reading your opinions on it. Sometimes I wish that I had never read it cause then I could read it and not know what was going to happen and be surprised all over again. Make strong cups of tea!!!
Posted by Nan O'Nagan @ 2001 Jun 01 04:03 AM EST
I've just found this site and have enjoyed reading it very much. It took me right back to my 1st reading.
My 1st copy of the book didn't fall apart, but I recently have had to buy the 3 books separately because of arthritis. I have even contemplated dividing these into 2 parts each to make them easier to hold.
Loved your comments on the elvish poetry. I felt the same when I first read the books, but as soon as I finished found I had to go back and re-read them. You find most of the major Silmarillion stories in those poems.
I have read the books every year since 1970 and still find something fresh each time.
Posted by Sue @ 2001 Jun 01 05:21 AM EST
Everyone's being grave now...the stuff is hitting the fan. This is the part of LOTR I like the most - blood, death, glory, sacrifice....BRING IT ON! ;)
Posted by Keith Fraser @ 2001 Jun 01 06:29 AM EST
Laural- I definitely recommend "The Starlit Jewel". I picked up the CD and the corresponding songbook when I was at a filkcon in California back in March. Broceliande are the team of Kristoph Klover and Margaret Davis, whom I've had the privilege to hear once or twice at filkcons through the years, though never together, interestingly enough. Hopefully, the California filkers will jump in at this point and give us more information about them (Jeff? Paul Kwinn? Scott? anyone?).
Nathan- There are lots of places on the web to learn more about filk music and several places to hear filk MP3's. To my delight I discovered my hunch is correct and you can hear an MP3 of filker Julia Ecklar singing "Fellowship Going South" at Eli Goldberg's page here http://www.prometheus-music.com/eli/. Scroll down to the fantasy catagory, first song. It also seems to be a good place to plug another website of Deb's with another one of my favorite on-line communities on it, her filk resource called "The Dandelion Report". You can find it at www.filking.net .
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 01 07:06 AM EST
I notice Eli's link above takes you directly to his homepage. Go to "The Virtual Filksing" to find the MP3 of "Fellowship Going South" and go to "Leslie Fish's filksongs" to find lyrics and chords to the song. Wow, "Fellowship Going South" was written in 1963- I didn't realize it had been written that long ago! (I first heard it when I first got involved in filk in 1985)
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 01 07:16 AM EST
This site has really inspired me...
..to shop! All the interesting comments here have given me an urge to own more Tolkien-related books. My swedish editions of The Hobbit and LoTR and a few other tidbits just aren't enough anymore! So, on their way from internet-bookstores, are a paperbackedition of LoTR in english (Harper Collins 1997 with Tolkien's original cover drawings), Humphrey Carpenters biography, Karen Wynn-Fonstads Atlas of Middle Earth, Fosters The Complete Guide to M-E, John Howes Map of M-E and a few others. Also I´ve already received and started to enjoy The BBC dramatization (on CD). Many of these products I´ve first read about on this site, so thank you, all!
And yes, alright, I WILL give The Silmarillion a new chance. I tried it last summer but found it to stiff and boring. But reading all your interesting comments the past weeks has convinced me to give it another try. I´ll borrow it in the library first, though. Still a bit skeptical...
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 01 07:53 AM EST
Oh yeah! Off topic, I think I have everyone beat on Distance To Debbie: I live in Korea. :)
Posted by Christopher @ 2001 Jun 01 08:33 AM EST
Katarina,
I just finished reading the Silmarillion for the first time, after 5 or 6 unsuccessful tries over the years. I always got bogged down within the first 50 pages or so, and I always couldn't believe it because I love the LOTR so much. Anticipation of the movie made me try it again this year, and I found something that worked for me: reading it out loud. It really was written to be a poetic, lyric work, and I think it has a lot in common with the old northern Europen sagas that Tolkien loved so much. The sagas were meant to be recited out loud, and I think the Silmarillion works much better that way too. Anyway, it got me through the book, I did enjoy it in the end, and now I like catching the Silmarillion references now that I'm reading LOTR again.
-Suzanne
Posted by Suzanne @ 2001 Jun 01 08:49 AM EST
Broceliande will be playing at the Mythopoeic Society's Mythcon 32 in San Francisco at the beginning of August -- after all these comments, I look forward to hearing them! The Mythopoeic Society's page is http://www.mythsoc.org/, and it's a reasonably priced conference if you live in the area.
There are a few copies of The Road Goes Ever On listed on http://abebooks.com, but they aren't too cheap -- ranging from $20 to VERY pricy.
Posted by Janet Croft @ 2001 Jun 01 09:08 AM EST
Fellowship Going South is also amid my favourite filksongs, and certainly one of my favourite by La Fish. Interestingly, it's supposedly the first filksong she ever wrote....back in 1963!
Another good resource for filk on the web is Maureen O'Brian's website, Darn Near All The Filk On The Web. Here's a link to the Tolkien section:
http://www.dnaco.net/~mobrien/filk/tolklink.html
Allison: I have a copy of the Swann book, and if you make it to Gafilk in January, I'll probably have brought it along. :) You can sometimes snare copies on eBay of it.
Thanks to Laurel for the recommendations on "The Starlit Jewel". I'll have to look it up.
Rob
Posted by Rob Wynne @ 2001 Jun 01 09:13 AM EST
Katarina,
I definately encourage you to read The Silmarillion. The most unfortunate part of this book is that the beginning does not hook the reader. The singing of the Valar is not too exciting but can only be told at the begining. Keep reading, it gets really good.
The tale of Tinuviel, Turin Turambar and the battle of unnumbered tears.....there is alot of great stuff. I read it twice in a month, there are alot of names and places to get straight.
I have yet to read LoTR since reading The Sil. (I leant my books to my Roommate) but I look forward to being able to pick out the tidbits of history in LoTR and realate it to the stories in The Sil.
Stick with it....it's worth it.
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 01 10:41 AM EST
Opps! I miss read. I guess you finished it already. Well my comments apply to everyone. Give The Silmarillion a chance.
I'm reading The book of Lost Tales, Vol. 1 & 2. mostly just the same stories from The Sil. just in earlier versions.
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 01 10:46 AM EST
I second that - now I actually love the opening of The Silmarillion, because I see how the legends are getting built up. Its a shame Tolkien didn't live to put the stuff into a final form. But I'll also suggest that anyone that's interested read Unfinished Tales, which includes more polished excerpts from the Tale of Turin and of Tuor's journey to Gondolin. Really good stuff.
Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 01 10:47 AM EST
Big Mike, grab hold of the Lays of Beleriand as well - the full poetic versions of The Tale of Beren and Luthien, and of much of the Tale of Turin, are very interesting reads.
Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 01 10:50 AM EST
Allison, Laural,
Funny you should mention Kristoph and Margaret :-). As it so happens, I am driving to San Francisco this afternoon to run sound for their other band Avalon Rising. I was drafted to run sound for them at Baycon this past week-end, and afterwards they asked me to do this gig as well. They are indeed very talented, I recommend any of their recordings highly. If any of you are in the San Francisco bay area, the gig is at Johny Foley's Irish Pub, 243 O'Farrell St. in S.F.
Posted by Jeff Bohnhoff @ 2001 Jun 01 11:35 AM EST
Sad to be at the end of your entries. I've been on for 7 hrs. You can tell how I read the books too. Be sure to read the Silmarillon, but you may need to skip over slow parts the first time. I still can't believe Galadriel would part with the phial. Most of the Noldor would have let Sauron win first.
Posted by dave @ 2001 Jun 01 12:37 PM EST
Suzanne, Big Mike, Nathan
Thank you so very much for your comments and advice on how to aproach The Silmarillion! I really like the idea of reading it out loud. Which makes me decide to try the original in english the next time. It's probably much more beautiful. Last summer i read it in swedish, but only got through a few of the tales.
Also, I'm making a list of the recommendations that many of you post here for volumes of The History of Middle Earth. I'm getting really curious about those books too. Have to wait a bit though, I´m starting to run out of money...
The entries on this board are sure piling up, aren't they! Debbie will have a lot to read through when she gets back to her reading and writing. :)))
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 01 01:03 PM EST
Big Mike - You shold definitely read LOTR ASAP now that you have read the Sil. I just read the Silmarillion at the end of april and then Unfinished Tales before starting LOTR again. It's amazing how much appreciation I have for all of the references to the tales from these books. Even little things like in the previous chapter when Sam faces Shelob: "but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Turin wield it." I can't remember what I thought of these things before reading the Silmarillion. I guess I just had some vague idea that Beren, Luthien, and Turin were some old important figures. But now knowing more detail from the Sil, these names evoke so much more meaning on the written page. It's like two ambiguous heroes compared to BEREN and TURIN! I can't express the connotations here, but anyone who has enjoyed the Silmarillion will know what I'm getting at.
This comes into play to an even greater extent with the songs and poetry in LOTR. Emotion is an integral part of these forms of expression, but it's difficult to feel very emotional reading cryptic verses about old unknown legends. But now, when someone sings about Gil-galad, or Earendil, or Beren and Luthien, emotion becomes a very strong and present element and this really brings the poems and songs to life.
And also the background history just gives a greater sense of the vastness of Middle Earth. With characters, races, events, and places and so on.
So, now that I've babbled on long enough, what I meant to simply say is that I HIGHLY recommend reading the Silmarillion and/or Unfinished Tales and then reading LOTR again. And if you don't particularly like the beginning of the Sil (the Ainulindale) treat it like the PROLOGUE! of LOTR. Things start to get going after that.
Posted by Phil @ 2001 Jun 01 01:20 PM EST
absolute rubbish. galadriel parts with the phial, and refuses the ring because it is part of the test : remember that the noldor are exiles from valinor, and that they did so in the foolishness of their youthful bliss?
When frodo wants to give the ring to galadriel, she refuses it, but she wins that battle of intellect because she is far, far older than the ring itself, and she has longed to return to Aman the Blessed for about 6 to 8 thousand years...
the refusal is a proof of her "good will", and her repentance. (UT and Sil, she wanted to have lands of her own, and to be called a lady, just like Melko did, maybe in a nicer way, but still not so nice.)
So, she can afford herself to give the phial for overthrowing Sauron. she's lived through Morgoth's age, and will depart from Endor when the magic leaves as well.
Posted by bilbao @ 2001 Jun 01 01:21 PM EST
Well, I just want to say that it's GREAT that LotR inspires you to your own art work - well, I mean your comics :o) And the poem of Billy the ponny, you know, it's also very nice. By the way, do you like Tolkien's poems? I love them but must say that first time I read the books I didn't like them much. I ignored them because they held me back. Now I know many of them by heart both in czech and in english :o))) There is SO MUCH in the poems... (sigh :o))
Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 01 01:27 PM EST
Katerina, which are your favorite poems? My personal favorites are The Last Ship and The Hoard. Both extremely nostalgic and sad. Love it! 8-)>
Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 01 01:30 PM EST
To bring together threads from the top and bottom of these comments: I agree that the hobbits are essential to making LOTR a narrative that can be identified with, that one can picture oneself in. It is through their eyes, as they travel farther from their old "ordinary" lives every day, that we see the true wonder of the powers and marvels that remain in Middle-Earth at the end of the Third Age. Perhaps The Silmarillion could never have been the same kind of book as LOTR, but I would argue that if it had had some similar mechanism for consistently grounding its high/mighty/epic-ness against the immediacy of the everyday, it would have been a better read. (There are a few sections that do this better than others; "Of Turin Turambar" is one, but the story of Turin is just way too depressing for me to enjoy. Yes, I know what Christopher Tolkien says in The Silmarillion's Introduction about the changing tone of the book and how it would be understandable in any book compiled from stories and legends thousands of years old, but to me that's just a fig leaf for the fact that his father never managed to come up with a narrative framework that would have allowed The Silmarillion to be a wonderful, cohesive *story* in the same way that LOTR is. Ouch! I feel the flames coming already!)
As regards filk: Yes, "The Starlit Jewel" is wonderful, as are the isolated songs previously mentioned ("Fellowship Going South," "Lady of the Wood"). A couple other items I'll mention: Scott Snyder does another LOTR song called "The Ringbearer" that doesn't get the same press as "Lady of the Wood," but that I enjoy more. Frodo sings about the burden of the Ring ("I'm lo-o-ost...within the Ring of Power...") to driving guitar accompaniment; you wouldn't think that would work, but, wow, does it ever. Another interesting piece is Pavel Fomitchov's instrumental keyboard suite "Music of the Elves" on his album "The Personal Music"; it starts with "Galadriel's Song" and moves through "Halls of Rivendell" and "Death of Elven King" (?not sure where *that* came from). A lot of it is fairly trite "fantasy keyboard" stuff that sounds like a million other pieces aired on "Music from the Hearts of Space" in the last umpteen years. But every now and then he manages to come up with a deft phrase or section that's simply marvelous. (Of course, I'm nutty for the "Hawk the Slayer" soundtrack, so I have no right complaining about the "trite fantasy keyboard" sound. ;-) ) The last piece I'll mention is one of Tom Smith's only Tolkien pieces, "The Return of the King" -- in which Aragorn does his best Elvis impersonation. Hysterical!
Posted by Randy Hoffman @ 2001 Jun 01 01:39 PM EST
Ok, my first comment here... I want to thank you so much for putting this up! I read the Hobbit at age 8 and the LotR at age 9, and it is so refreshing to see what your 'first time' thoughts are. My first 'owned' copy, alas, finally lost the battle with time (50+ readings will do that) and I have had 3 copies since then... 2 of which I still own. You really are at a good point to set the book down... but please set it down between chapters long enough to post! ;)Btw, have you gone back and re-read your earliest posts about this and then your most recent. You, just like Tolkien's characters, seem to be changing. The tone of your comments now is so completely different than at first. Sorry, but I couldn't help but comment on that. Good luck and good reading to you!
Posted by Elwen @ 2001 Jun 01 02:10 PM EST
Nathan:
The Last Ship - you mean the poem of Legolas...? You know, I never know how to title the poems :o)
and I don't know which one is The Hoard... can you help me with few words? (sorry :o))
OK, The Last Ship is very nostalgic indeed and I really like it. My favorite is The Lament for Boromir. That's so beautiful, so sad, ah!
I like also that Gollum's song about the "fish so juicy sweet", that's so cute, and those Walking Songs - all versions (it was just when I read the books lately when I found out that the versions differ!), also Bilbo's song "I sit beside the fire and think...", you know. I would say the more nostalgic song it is, the more I like it!
And one song from Hobbit:
"The wind was on the withered heath,
but in the forest stirred no leaf:
there shadows lay by night and day,
and dark things silent crept beneath."
Oh, that's it, DARK THINGS CREPT BENEATH! Beautiful.
You know what? I must say that the lady who translated LotR to czech made really an excellet work! I compared it with the original english version and it is really very precise and exact - including the poems, and according to me it must have been the most difficult thing.
Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 01 02:28 PM EST
Oh dear, I have just heard that "Fellowhip Going South" song! That's so BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know if I should laugh or cry :o)
Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 01 02:56 PM EST
Wow! What fabulous discussion we have going here today! Maybe Debbie should have company more often ;). (kidding, I'm looking forward to Deb's reaction to ROTK, too) Let's see where I left off...
Katarina- Yeah, this journal is causing me to shop, too... Bought a hard-cover copy of "The Hobbit" last week and I keep getting lured back to Tolkien displays every time I hit a bookstore these days. All these mentions of poetry books are starting to tempt me, too.
I'm also intrigued by the people here who said they first read LOTR in another language other than English, Katarina in Swedish, Katy in German, etc.. You made mention of the poetry, Katarina- how do they handle the poetry in the foriegn language editions? Is it rough translations of English or are there attempts to translate the poetry across? That must be extremely difficult and yet it's such a crucial part of LOTR!
And, yeah, Deb gets inspired to draw cartoons of everything :). Know her long enough and you'll get plenty used to seeing yourself drawn in cartoon form. I love her "Waiting For Frodo" strip and especially that she named her main guy Sam.
And I'm glad you liked "Fellowship Going South". I really love that song. In fact, it hit me today that for years I've wanted to do some Tolkien cross-stitch, but no patterns are available anywhere and maybe what I should do is design a pattern of my own using the lyrics of that song and some small illustrations or a siloquette of the Fellowship walking over a hill or something. Hmmm, what a cool idea...
And beware of liking filk :). We can be as insideous and determined to increase our numbers as the Tolkienites :). Just go over and listen to a few more filksongs... Try "The Horse-Tamer's Daughter" from that same site, which isn't Tolkien, but certainly should appeal to Tolkien readers. (and be warned it's a 20 minute song, but worth every minute)
Poetry: I can't find my Tolkien poetry books, though I have vague images of poems in my head, so I know they must be buried in the garage or somewhere. Which poem is it that has the "elven-fair" woman on the shore that the elves try to lure across the sea, but her feet sink into the mud reminding her of her heritage and she chooses not to go? I always liked that poem a lot.
Randy- Oh, I love Scott Snyder's "The Ringbearer", very powerful (another plug- it can be found on Scott's filktape, "Bardic Lug" available through all decent filk outlets)and I've always been proud that he was always so determined that Urban Tapestry should perform "Lady of The Wood".
I've recently also been checking out Glass Hammer, due to some of the recommendations on the Tolkien sites, and I just ordered their new LOTR CD. Is there anyone out there more familiar with their music then I am?
And, yes, I'm now intrigued to re-read "The Silmarillion", too. I recall finding it dry when I read it several years back, but the insight from this journal should make my second reading much more rewarding. I must get "Unfinished Tales", too- I've never read it.
Janet- I wish I could get to MythCon- it sounds fascinating! I'll be asking you more about that Pop Culture convention in Toronto you mentioned in e-mail yesterday.
Rob- It's not likely I'll be at GaFilk, either... But I'll see you at Ohio Valley Filk Fest, right? (I'm -hoping- to be there)
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 01 03:44 PM EST
Katerina, I was actually talking about poems out of The Adventures of Tome Bombadil - whoops! Sorry for not being clear there. 8-)>
Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 01 03:46 PM EST
Wow. I just killed way too much time in here - this is FANTASTIC to re-experience the LotR for the first time. Keep up the great work, Deb!
I posted in several previous pages, so I'll try to be brief here 8-).
Yes, definitely read the Sil and UT, then go back to H/LotR. I strongly recommend Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle Earth as a constant companion while reading the Sil and any future reads of H/LotR. Don't let the first few sections of the Sil shut you down - they are necessary to set up the rest of it. I also use J.E.A. Tyler's Tolkien Companion (second edition - DON'T GET THE FIRST! It's full of inaccuracies and guesses, since it was published before the Sil). I've never used any of the other references, but I'm sure they're great too.
Tolkien's Biography and Letters (by Humphrey Carpenter) present awesome insight into who Professor Tolkien was and why he created these tales. After you read those you'll want to go back *again* the H/LotR/Sil and get a bunch more out of it. The final step seems to be the HoME series - 12 volumes of scholarly research and reports by JRRT's son, Christopher, about the evolution of Tolkien's world from the perspective of the writing itself.
Positively brilliant stuff. I'm currently on v.5, The Lost Road and Other Writings, and am now really looking forward to my next H/LotR reading.
A great source to pick these books up used is abebooks.com. I acquired the entire series in good+ condition hardbacks for reasonable prices (and supported a few small book resellers in the process 8-).
Also, I found the full text of the Hobbit and LotR online about a year ago and copied them up to my server. I'm hesitant to publish the URL for it, since I firmly believe the publisher has a right to our money and we should buy the books first (I've bought LotR about 6 times now!). However, if anyone is interested and *has already purchased a copy* send me an email and I'll let you know the URL. A digital copy is very handy when doing "research".
And finally, someone mentioned the BBC dramatizations a few days back. They are really fun. I recently ripped them to mp3 for my personal use. I've posted the chapters from Book 1 to ftp://lindo.cheakamus.com/audio/The_Lord_of_the_Rings/Book_1/ - consider it a teaser 8-). I may put parts of the other books up in ogg format some day.
Cheers!
Posted by Lindo @ 2001 Jun 01 03:49 PM EST
Allison -- the poem you are thinking of is The Last Ship. It's in The Tolkien Reader as the last poem in the book. The human Firiel is offered a chance to join the last ship departing the Grey Havens:
"I cannot come!" they heard her cry.
"I was born Earth's daughter!"
Very haunting -- I hadn't read it for years, but I remembered it immediately when I saw your post.
Posted by Janet Croft @ 2001 Jun 01 04:01 PM EST
I too was directed here from theonering.net, and I will echo many a previous comment that this site is a real treasure! I found it this morning and spent the next two hours reading your comments and those of your devoted followers.
Now time for my history with Tolkien:
My first encounter was when I was 5 or 6 years old. My father (who had read The Hobbit and LOTR in college during the mid-60s) was reading The Hobbit to my older brother. I wasn't too interested at the time, because it sounded like a story about cavemen. My older brother got a copy of The Silmarillion when it was first published, which prompted me at age 10 to read The Hobbit and LOTR myself. My first reading was with my father's battered paperbacks from the 60s with the stylistic pop-art covers that make a mural when the 3 books are put side by side. Don't know where they are now; probably sold at a garage sale or donated to a library. I currently use the large red-leather bound edition by Houghton & Mifflin with the entire LOTR in one volume (reminds me of the Red Book). Ever since my first reading I have always considered LOTR to be my favorite novel. I would dearly love to be able to read LOTR again for the first time as an adult. Too much of the story was lost on me at the time, and I think only an adult mind (or very thoughtful adolescent) can appreciate the intricacy of the final product. I recall thinking for many years that the "Council of Elrond" chapter was really boring, while I now consider it the best chapter of the entire story.
Tolkien was my in-road many other fantasy authors and role-playing games (Dungeons & Dragons and others), which were the cornerstone of my non-academic existence from middle school through college. My final project for sophomore English in high school was about Tolkien and LOTR (got an "A" by the way; audio-visual slide show).
I eagerly anticipate your further postings. BTW, for your informal poll of locales, I live in southern California.
(I chose my name ["Weregild"] from Isildur's statement upon taking the Ring that he considered it weregild for the deaths of his father and brother. "the value set in Anglo-Saxon and Germanic law upon human life in accordance with rank and paid as compensation to the kindred or lord of a slain person")
Posted by Weregild @ 2001 Jun 01 04:48 PM EST
Allison,
I'm sure most editions of LoTR in other languages try to translate the verses and songs in a poetic way. All the lyrics are poetically translated in my swedish edition from 1959, with rhymes and rythm and so forth. I must admit though, I never payed much attention to the songs, even though I appreciate them as a part of Tolkiens way of painting the Middle Earth picture with colour and background. But I guess I now need to take a closer look at the songs, too...
Here's an example. Strider is singing to the hobbits about Beren and Tinuviel in Book 1, chapter 11: "A Knife in The Dark". First verse (there should be dots or rings over some of the a's and o's, don't know if they come across):
Så grönt var gräset, lövet tätt
och så fagert högt stod vart odörtsnår.
I gläntan sågs ett skimmer lätt
av stjärnljus i mörkret tindra.
Tinuviel sin dans där trår
till ton av en flöjt, den ingen sett,
med stjärnljus i sitt gyllne hår
och slöjor, som fagert glindra.
I still love this site, in spite of Debbies absence. I just noticed that a lot of new posts were added today, on almost every chapter! I read them all - it´s nice to have a larger Fellowship around!
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 01 07:06 PM EST
Sorry, should be 1959 translation, not edition... :-)
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 01 07:50 PM EST
Katarina- You know, I meant to ask people reading LOTR in another language to post a small sample of the poetry, so thanks for anticipating that request! Can anyone else post that first verse that Katarina posted in any other language?
Deb's journal is back on the front page of theonering.net today, which explains a lot of the extra traffic here :). I'd noticed a lot of new posts on the other chapters besides this one, too!
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 01 08:02 PM EST
Kristoph Klover and Margaret Davis will be guests at the UK filk convention next February. Check my site at www.filk.co.uk for more info.
And for a different filk take on the Silmarillion, try this one
Posted by Rafe @ 2001 Jun 01 09:47 PM EST
For those who have been eagerly following along with the reports and comments I thought it would be fun for everyone to see a condensed list of how quickly Debbie got sucked into Tolkien's World. (read: I have way too much time on my hands to be doing this)
For those who haven't read the books yet (as if there are any left here) there is a plot spoiler from chapter 5: Bridge of Kazad-dum concerning a certain wizard.
Highlights of Debbie’s Journey (Books 1 and 2)
Book 1 –
Chapter 1: “Frodo seems pretty two-dimensional so far...”
Chapter 2: “If anything nasty happens to the Hobbits in the Shire, I'm going to be upset...” & “I like Sam.”
Chapter 3: “I hope [Sam] gets some more backbone eventually.” & “I'm still somewhat confused about whether the Ring is inherently good or evil.
Chapter 4: “...And there they go breaking into song again...sigh.”
Chapter 5: “There's more to these hobbits that meets the eye (or ear).”
Chapter 6: “I quite like Tom Bombadil.”
Chapter 7: ..."Ring a ding dillo! Wake now, my merry husband! Ring a ding dillo del! derry del, my hearty!”
Chapter 8: “Ha! I understood Lord of the Rings "insider" jokes!”
Chapter 9: “Oo, Strider sounds like quite a guy. I bet -he- doesn't have hairy feet.”
Chapter 10: “...I still don't entirely trust Strider.”
Chapter 11: “I like Sam more and more.” & “Great cliffhanger chapter ending!”
Chapter 12: “I have to confess that I'm somewhat hooked at this point...” & “Okay, so I was wrong about Strider.” & (of course) “If anything bad happens to [Sam] in LOTR, I'm going to be upset.” :-)
Book 2 –
Chapter 1: “In sum, I'm not too crazy about Frodo so far. But I quite like the other hobbits especially Sam.” & “Also like Strider. Gandalf's a bit too "gloom and doom" for me...” & (my favorite kind of quote) “If anything really bad ends up happening to Pippin, I'm not going to be happy.” & “I think Frodo should give the Ring to Sam.”
Chapter 2: “This chapter was agony to get through.” & “I do have somewhat more respect for Frodo...”
Chapter 3: “I'm beginning to like Pippin.” & “...I suppose having a wizard around could be handy.” & “By the way, I've noticed that LOTR's plot sounds an awful lot like "The Sword of Shannara" by Terry Brooks..” Uh oh! :-) & (naturally) “If anything bad happens to Bill, I'm going to be upset.”
Chapter 4: “Also, I have to admit that it's good that Gandalf came along.” & “My respect for Frodo has grown...”
Chapter 5: “I'm just starting to get into Gandalf, and he's killed off!” & “Can't believe I'm actually starting to care about the characters in this book. How did this happen??”
Chapter 6: “Bit of a dull chapter...but perhaps anything would have seemed dull after the last chapter.”
Chapter 7: “I really like Lady Galadriel!” & “Great to see Sam's character develop.” & “Frodo’s getting braver...”
Chapter 8: “Sam had better survive long enough to use his orchard earth, or I'm going to be upset (insert Debbie trademark symbol here).” & “I love the description as they leave... WOW, very cool writing...”
Chapter 9: “the Company must be highly distracted since no one broke into song during this entire chapter!” & “Must keep reading.”
Chapter 10: “Wow, major plot development (and cliffhanger ending!).” & “Liked Frodo more in this chapter...” & “I adore dear Sam...” & “I found [part one] much more enjoyable than I expected, and am looking forward to the next one.” & “On to Book III...”
Posted by McDowalj @ 2001 Jun 01 11:14 PM EST
Arg! I can't help it, I just have to put in a quote from "Bored of the Rings" for Debbie. :-)
"I can't make out the words," said Frito.
"No, you cannot," said Goodgulf. "They are elvish, in the tongue of Fordor. A rough translation is:
"This Ring, no other, is made by the elves,
Who'd pawn their own mother to grab it themselves,
Ruler of creeper, mortal, and scallop,
This is a sleeper that packs quite a wallop.
The Power almighty rests in this Lone Ring.
The Power, alrighty, for doing your Own Thing.
If broken or busted, it can't be remade
If found, send to Sorhead (the postage's prepaid)."
Shortly afterwards, Frito goes marching off to certain doom across...(ahem)..."Lower Middle Earth" with Spam, and the twins Moxie and Pepsi Dingleberry. To quote Frito "He rolled his eyes heavenward. It was going to be a long epic." :-)
Posted by McDowalj @ 2001 Jun 01 11:32 PM EST
McDowalj- :D :D You -do- have too much time on your hands, but your summary of Deb's journal through "Fellowship" is hilarious and highly satisfying.
I still think my favorite line in Deb's whole journal so far is:
“the Company must be highly distracted since no one broke into song during this entire chapter!”
That, plus the fact that she was sitting crying in a coffee shop on Monday vowing to kill me because I didn't tell her Frodo was going to pull a Gandalf at the end of "The Two Towers".
Looking forward to your analysis of Deb's travels through Books 3 and 4 :).
(hee hee, Deb is going start becoming scared to leave us all alone here...)
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 02 12:37 AM EST
I see somebody has posted a part of the Beren and Tinuviel poem here in Swedish, and I actually could translate it. Learning Swedish in school *does* have its uses. Well, here's the same verse from my Finnish copy ( translation from year 1973).
Oli vehreät lehvät ja nurmivyö,
oli salskeat katkot kukassaan,
ja suolla varjoissa, kun tuli yö
valo tähtien himersi hiiluvana.
Tinúviel siellä käy tanssimaan,
näkymättömät soittimet tahtia lyö,
valo tähtien hohtaa kutreillaan
ja pukuaan peittää kiiluvana.
I've always loved the poems myself, because the language is so beautiful, the kind that isn't used these days. The one who translated them into Finnish did an excellent job.
As for how I got into Tolkien... I was in second grade when a friend came for a visit carrying the heavy paperback of all three books. She recommended it warmly and so I ended up reading my father's copy of the aforementioned paperback version. It was longer than any book I'd ever read and I must say that it took me a long time to finish it ( hardest was the second book of Two Towers, because when I was young I was deathly afraid of Gollum).
Oh, and I just love telling people that Tolkien was influenced by the Finnish national epic Kalevala, among other things.
Posted by Miko Keiishi @ 2001 Jun 02 12:56 AM EST
swedish translation ....
Yes, the poetry is nicely translated ... BUT the rest of the translation is full or minor and major errors, alas (there is a list on the net floating round with about 1000 errors!)... And Tolkien himself didn´t like it since the translator, Åke Ohlmarks, did translate some stuff Tolkien wanted NOT translated and vice versa.
But the poetry is very nice ...
I still prefer the English version of LOTR though :-)
Posted by Ioreth @ 2001 Jun 02 03:21 AM EST
Re: mp3s of LOTR ...
Totally unfamiliar with THIS version!
I have the BBC dramatization broadcast in the early 80s, 13 hours on 13 tapes (roughly), with Ian Holm as Frodo and Michael Hordern as Gandalf - please could someone tell me which version the linked one is?
Posted by Ioreth @ 2001 Jun 02 03:32 AM EST
I'm glad Bilboa agrees that Galadriel's giving up the vial ranked up there with turning down the ring. I think Galadriel has shown tremendous growth since leaving her father on the blessed isle. She is one of my favorite characters. I think I painted too broadly about all the Noldor when it's really only Feanor (her half-uncle) and his sons who would have chosen evil over letting go of anything connected to the Silmarils. But only love of Feanor's sons brought Finrod and love of him brought Galdriel's brothers. I presume love of them brought her. She still found it hard to swallow her pride and chose to brave the ice rather than return and join her father. This is where it becomes remarkable and admirable that she is able to swallow her pride and diminish rather than become like Sauron.
Posted by dave @ 2001 Jun 02 03:53 AM EST
Nathan/poems: Aha, so that’s it :o) I don’t have this Tom Bombadil book, I know only those poems/song from LotR and the Hobbit you know.
Alison: in Czech it is real POETRY, not only a translation. Therefore I wrote before I admire the lady who translated it from English to Czech. I can understand English quite well :o) so I could compare it. Both the contents and the spirit of the poems is the same, believe me :o). She found almost the SAME WORDS, I can watch the English lines and recite the Czech version of the poem.
And here is the Czech version of the song of Beren and Tinuviel:
Bujnı byl list, tráva zelená,
vysokı kvetl bolehlav,
a mıtinou záø svìtelná
hvìzd ve stínu se chvìla.
Tinúviel se vznášela,
píšalka znìla ztajená,
vlas hvìzdnı mìla jako háv
a záø se v šatu odráela.
But I must admit this is not one of my favorite, sorry :o)
Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 02 06:40 AM EST
Ioreth,
Where can I find that 1000-errors-list? I´ve read LoTR in both english and swedish, but usually re-read the swedish version, from sentimental reasons... I believed that the main reason for Tolkien's displeasure was that Ohlmarks calls the hobbits "hober" (singular: hob, pronounced something like "hube").
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 02 07:07 AM EST
Allison,
I have both the Donald Swann songbook and the record of his compositions. I'll gladly share them with you. Like another poster, I find some of the music rather uninspired, but other tunes fit the music as if created in prehistory for the words.
For the filkish, there is a great cycle of Tolkien songs written by New York filker Mike Rubin. I only have a few of them but all I've heard have been exquisite and unique songs. Mike passed away a few years ago.
Posted by Judith @ 2001 Jun 02 03:48 PM EST
Whoops! My mistake! The mp3 recordings are *not* the BBC dramatization. I think they may be an NPR dramatization, but I'm not positive. The discs are by Soundelux Audio Publishing and are copyright 1979/1994.
Hmm... Ian Holm as Frodo - I'd love to hear that one!
Posted by Lindo @ 2001 Jun 02 04:33 PM EST
In Tolkien's Biography and Letters there's a fair amount of coverage regarding his attitude about the translations, and disappointment with several of them. I don't remember any specifics about it, though.
Posted by Lindo @ 2001 Jun 02 04:36 PM EST
Okay, I must reveal my ignorance and ask: what the heck is "filk?" I assume it is a music movement related to "folk" in some way. From the posts, I get the feeling it might be "new agey" as well, which doesn't fill me with any great desire to explore it...
Could someone give me a little history of filk, and what I might expect if I give it a listen?
As for the Swann cycle, it has always sounded to me like something you might hear sung by an overweight middle-aged soprano at the Podunk Ladies Society for the Promotion of Cultural Pretensions.
Posted by Paul Mendenhall @ 2001 Jun 02 05:32 PM EST
Filk is the folk music of the science fiction fan community. It has many different styles, from folk to rock. It can be funny or serious. Some filk is written as parodies of existing songs, while others are original. But at it's core, it is the music of a particular culture, that culture being SF fans.
There's a lot of "What is Filk?" links at http://www.interfilk.org/ -- and there's something in filk for every fan who also loves music. Check it out!
Rob
Posted by Rob Wynne @ 2001 Jun 02 05:43 PM EST
To MIKO from Finland:
Your above finnish translation of Luthien seems to me like "elvish", just when I look at it (I don't understand finnish a word of course :o)
Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 02 05:50 PM EST
Katerina–One of the elven languages, Quenya, is based on Finnish. The other one is Sindarin, based on Welsh.
Posted by talierin @ 2001 Jun 02 06:45 PM EST
Katerina
No wonder that you think the finnish translation looks like "elvish"! Tolkien loved the finnish language, and was very inspired by that when he created his elvish languages, especially Quenya, if I remember correctly. The song " Ai! laurie lantar lassi súrinen" etc (FoTR, book 2, chapter 8), which is written in Quenya, looks very finnish at least to my ignorant swedish eyes...
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 02 06:50 PM EST
I am the friend visiting Debbie this weekend (i.e. I am responsible for holding up her LOTR reading) *grin.*
And I actually brought the songbook for "The Starlite Jewel" CD for her to look at *laugh.*
I am also a Tolkien fan, and I plan on rereading all of the books sometime this summer (in my copious spare time as a new mother, right) Oh well, at least I will try . . .
No, Debbie is not reading any LOTR right now, but I imagine she will make up for lost time with a vengence after I have gone back home. So no, I do not feel ANY guilt for holding her up *big guiltless grin*
Posted by Andrea @ 2001 Jun 03 12:14 AM EST
Thanks for the "filk" info and link, Rob! I'll check it out when I have the time to do it justice.
Re: the Silmarillion. It's funny to me that so many seem to have a hard time with the opening chapters. My reaction was the opposite, loving the "Song of the Ainur" and so on, and getting bogged down in the Elvish histories that follow. But I recently read it through from cover to cover, and it really is wonderful, once you take it on it's own terms, and don't expect it to be a novel. I think of The Silmarillion as the "Bible" of Middle Earth, a collection of creation myths, epic poetry, historical tales, and so forth, collected and re-edited over thousands of years until it became the primary historical/religious text of classrooms in Gondor. Approached in that way, it becomes a fascinating collection of documents.
Posted by Paul Mendenhall @ 2001 Jun 03 11:11 AM EST
Hi Debbie,
I'm really enjoying reading your thoughts as you read LOTRs for the first time. But I thought I'd better jump in here and tell you what happened to me the first time I read it. NO SPOILERS! - but a warning. The last third of ROTK is a bunch of appendixes - worth reading, but not directly part of the story. I got a little over half way done with ROTK and the story started to end and I started screaming "NO - IT CAN'T END YET. There's all these pages left...." I was heartbroken. LOTR is the best book I've ever read, by far. Nothing else comes close (IMHO).
Posted by Duane @ 2001 Jun 03 11:55 AM EST
For those who've been asking about Tolkien-inspired music, and about Broceliand and Avalon Rising in particular, here's the url for their site: http://www.flowinglass.com/avalon/. Kristoiph Klover and Margaret Davis form the backbone of both bands. Avalon Rising's sound could be classified as "celtic rock" while Brocelians has a more medieval and rennaissance sound. They're a blast to listen to live, and are very popular here in the San Francisco Bay area. They play a lot of places like pubs in addition to filk venues. I believe their site has music samples on their site. Check them out! And here's a tidbit from their news on their site:
"Broceliande was filmed by Assassin Films to appear in "Searching for the Hobbit", a documentary about the influence of Tolkien on the arts. The trailer for the Tolkien documentary, "Searching for the Hobbit", can be seen at www.searchingforthehobbit.com. The documentary will include performances of the Tolkien material by Broceliande."
Posted by Beckett Gladney @ 2001 Jun 03 12:12 PM EST
Talierin + Katarina/Finnish:
I could have thought there was something true on it :o)
Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 03 02:23 PM EST
Sigh, just got back from buying "The Atlas of Middle-Earth" and "Tales From The Perilous Realm"- this journal is going to bankrupt me :). But I found I really wanted to read "The Last Ship" again and I've been curious to read "Leaf By Niggle" ever since Jeff made reference to it several chapters back. I don't think I've ever read it.
I'm fascinated to see the verses of Beren and Tinuviel in various languages. It just gives me a new respect for those folks who have translated Tolkien through the years that they have to be as much poets as linguists. It really is their skill that allows the beauty of the work to translate from one language to another. I was reading just today that supposedly one of the reasons the Japanese have never really taken to Tolkien is because the translations are not that effective, though I wonder, too, if it's a cultural translation that impacts on such connections.
And fascinating to read about the Finnish and Welsh influences on Tolkien's elven languages. I'm learning so much from reading this journal.
Judith- Might I have heard any of the Tolkien songs by Mike Rubins? What are some of the titles?
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 03 02:52 PM EST
Alison,
when reading about the Welsh and Finnish influences I just remember that in Czech Republic we have a beer named RADEGAST :o) (named after that pagan god, not after Radagast, it's a pity :o()
Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 03 03:31 PM EST
DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!
Please be warned there is *another* set of Lord of the Rings tapes out there sold under the auspices of the 'Mind's Eye'. Shun them! They are awful, awful things. The hobbits are presented as the 'Lollipop Guild' from Munchkinland and all *magic* or remotely magical things are accompanied by cheezeball *tinkly* sound effects. I purchased a boxed set some years back on the cheap and have them buried in the bottom of a concrete vault somewhere (read in the depths of my 'of no use to the world other than as a warning' collection of items). Just thinking about those tapes makes me shudder involuntarily. You have been warned! :)
Posted by Paul H. @ 2001 Jun 03 08:40 PM EST
Paul, just passed by the tapes today at Barnes & Noble and was considering buying them (at a very costly price I might add). Thanks for the warning.
Posted by Roland @ 2001 Jun 03 11:01 PM EST
D'OH! BAD IORETH! SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT! WEEE-OOP WEE-OOP!!
:-?
Posted by Lindo @ 2001 Jun 04 12:34 AM EST
OK, that -was- a pretty major spoiler... Think I'll go over and suggest to Deb she avoid reading these comments until she gets beyond chapter 6...
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 04 12:43 AM EST
Did my best to head Deb off at the pass, sent her three letters with stars in the titles telling her to avoid the chapter 1 letter column until after chapter 6. She usually reads my mail in the morning, so we'll see what happens.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 04 01:04 AM EST
I just want to second the comment about the quality of the BBC version. I got the whole set on cassette for Christmas a few years ago, having never read the novels.
The cast is made of many vets of the Royal Shakespeare Company, the music excellent, and the overall production very classy.
I still find myself moved by this adaptation, even after many listenings.
Posted by Spatulalad @ 2001 Jun 04 01:19 AM EST
does anyone (other than Deb) have some sort of mod authorization to delete the spoiler above? be a shame for Deb to miss all the meandering posts from the weekend. of course, it'd probably take her just as long to read this stuff as another chapter of the book, so maybe her time would be better spent with Tolkien? ;-)
Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 04 01:25 AM EST
First, thanks very much to Debbie for getting started on this thing, and so faithfully posting all her comments. I am very glad that you seem to be enjoying it, and, as with so many others here, I confess to not having been so excited since I first read the books.
And since we seem to be so very multilingual here, herewith the start of the Beren and Luthien thingy:
(In French)
Les feuilles étaient longues, l'herbe était verte,
Les ombelles de ciguë hautes et belles.
Et dans la clairière se voyait une lumière
D'étoiles dans l'ombre scintillant.
Là, dansait Tinuviel
Sur la musique d'un pipeau invisible,
Et la lumière des étoiles était dans ses cheveux,
Et dans ses vêtements miroitants.
(and Turkish)
Yapraklar uzun, çimenler yeşildi,
Ne hoştu şemsiyesi uzun göknarların.
Orman açıklığında, gölgede
Göz kırpıyordu ışığı yıldızların.
Tinúviel dans ediyordu orada şimdi,
Görünmeyen bir kavalın ezgisiyle;
Yıldızların ışığı saçlarında,
Ve parıl parıl parlıyordu elbisesi sırtında.
Posted by Emre @ 2001 Jun 04 03:07 AM EST
LINDO,
I'd like to have access to your HTML versions of LotR and Hobbit. I'm wondering HOW can I convince you that I have already purchased a copy of the books??? I promise not to make these files publicly accessable. :o))))
Can you e-mail me? BIG THANKS!
Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 04 04:05 AM EST
Emre,
the Turkish translation looks great! It's a pity we can't hear it.
Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 04 04:16 AM EST
Emre,
the Turkish translation looks great! It's a pity we can't hear it.
Can somebody else write down the poem in some other language? Some German, Russian, Italian???? I'm curoius!!!! :o)))))
Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 04 04:19 AM EST
Eh, sorry, double post :o(
Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 04 04:22 AM EST
wow! 95 comments [96 with this one i guess!] poor debbie though, she has to wait up to the battle of Pelenor chapter to read all of these. :] nasssty sspoiler people, yesss preciouss ;]
Posted by yiorgos @ 2001 Jun 04 05:42 AM EST
damn!
i don't have a greek edition of LOTR! [i've only read it in English silly me] and i'd love to post the greek translation of the poem. well, i promise i'll try to get hold of it sometime soon.
97 comments! come on, another 3 needed...
Posted by yiorgos @ 2001 Jun 04 05:46 AM EST
Charly, everything is forgiven! ;)Spoilers are taken to a new appaling level and Ioreth takes the lead...
:-<
And Allison, it's truly great that we have you to 'protect' Debbie. Thank you!
Posted by Martin @ 2001 Jun 04 05:56 AM EST
Hey there !
Been reading these pages in England thanks to a link from theonering.net , and I would just like to add my opinion on the BBC LOtR adaptation. It is AMAZING ! I was lent it by a friend at the age of 11, having already read The Hobbit and LOtR, and i was instantly hooked ! It will be very strange to see the film when it comes out, all the voices will be wrong ! Saruman in particular (played by Peter Howell) is great in this respect , you can really feel the hypnotic power of his voice, then when he gets angry it totally changes - very scary !
In my opinion , the best thing to do is to listen to this adaptation with your eyes shut - the whole thing is just so amazing, you can really imagine the scene before your very eyes !
Keep up the good work Debbie - it is DEFINITELY worth it !
Fiona (age 19, Nottingham, England)
Posted by Fiona @ 2001 Jun 04 05:58 AM EST
Another post from England...
Firstly, to people like Ioreth - you're not clever and its not funny - PLEASE stop putting spoilers in here - just let Debbie enjoy it as she goes.
Secondly, as we've been talking music again here, and as I'm from England - anyone heard the new album by Bob Catley (ex Magnum) - Middle Earth - even if you don't like melodic rock music, its worth getting just for the lyric booklet - pure poetry - and if you like the music, just amazing...
Posted by Andy @ 2001 Jun 04 06:29 AM EST
Great site!!! Here is the first verse of this poem in Polish:
Zielone liscie, zieleñ traw,
Wysoki, jasny szalej -
A na polance swiat³o gwiazd
Na tle cienistych alej.
Tinuviel wiedzie tutaj tan
(Ton fletni - s³yszysz - bliski),
A na jej w³osach swiat³o gwiazd
I w sukni gwiezdne b³yski.
Polish translation ( by Maria Skibniewska) was one of the first in the world (and is very good, too).
Posted by Sergeant @ 2001 Jun 04 07:09 AM EST
Heh, I just called Deb at 7:00 in the morning for the first time in my life (I'm not a morning person and -never- call in the morning, so I scared her out of ten years' growth when she saw my name on the phone display...), but she hasn't read the Chapter 1 comments yet and now she knows not to. I'm as relieved as everybody else here :). (though, Ioreth, I can truly appreciate how easy it is to do something like that by accident- I've found myself scrutinizing every letter I write for fear it would be me who would give away something dreadful!)
But I will be spending the next week in e-mail trying to make up for the scare I gave Debbie just now... Hopefully once she's a bit more awake (I had just picked up a letter from her, so I knew she was awake :)) she'll appreciate my intentions :).
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 04 07:19 AM EST
To Sergeant:
Very nice poetry indeed!!!
Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 04 07:30 AM EST
Fiona, Spatulalad, Ioreth...
...and everyone else who has been recommending The BBC radio dramatization: I totally agree!! I got it in the mail some days ago from Barnes % Nobles and finished listening to it last night (very late, just couldn´t stop). It was almost like reading LoTR for the first time (and you all know how we treasure that moment of our lives...).
Debbie, whenever you read this, I really recommend this experience. There's no way you will find Frodo dull in this interpretation! Sir Ian Holms voice gives you all the nuances of Frodos joy, modesty, sorrow, pain and despair. I especially loved the portayal of the deepening friendship between Sam and Frodo, so heartbreakingly played by the actors. It´s just wonderful. But alas, it will be difficult to accept young Elijah Wood as Frodo, after listening to this...
Ioreth, I feel sorry for you. You answered my question and, accidentally I'm sure, gave away a spoiler. Please don't refrain from commenting again, just because of that!
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 04 08:36 AM EST
Oh, no, Ioreth, I wouldn't stop posting because of a simple mistake.
But you owe me big time ;).
I like what I've seen so far of Elijah Wood as Frodo, so I guess I better avoid the audio recordings for now, though I am curious to hear them.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 04 09:26 AM EST
The first verse of the poem in Greek:
Prasino htan to xortari, drosia gemata ta fyllomata
Kai ta louloudia ola ligna kai lygera
Kai fota efanikan sto ksefoto olo xromata,
San astra sti skia na lampyrizoun.
H Tinuviel h ksotikia xoreue olo xara,
Se mousiki aulon paigmenon me stomata aorata.
To fos ton astron foliaze mesa sta maura tis mallia,
Kai ta foremata tis ekane na straftalizoun.
Posted by Aris Katsaris @ 2001 Jun 04 09:56 AM EST
There's still time to listen to the BBC LOTR before the film. PJ film version is shaping up well, but nothing compares to the majesty and detail of the written text.
Posted by Alan C @ 2001 Jun 04 09:59 AM EST
REALLY SORRY ... was meant to post that in swedish but somehow it got english instead ... sigh ... Any way to delete the stuff?
A pity noone mailed to me!
How is this page set up? Maybe someone could go into the database and delete that sentence? Or if it´s just plain text files, edit out that part?
really sorry ...
Posted by Ioreth @ 2001 Jun 04 12:01 PM EST
'Tis OK, Ioreth, read Debbie's next post. She was warned before she saw the spoiler. And I still think it's possible for her to read most of the thread now and avoid the spoiler, too (see my letter in the next chapter).
You're just really lucky that Debbie is a morning person and I'm a night person and I was able to do damge-control by phone before she got going into her day :). But that's the last time I plan to scare Deb that early in the morning again, so do be careful from now on, eh? Though it really was inevitable that this would happen somewhere along the route. It could have been worse...
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 04 12:14 PM EST
This site is fantastic! Thank you, Debbie, for allowing me to experience reading LOTR for the first time all over again...
Here's the Dutch version of the first part of Strider's story of Tinúviel:
Lang was het blad en groen het mos,
De kervelbloesems, groot en zwaar,
En op een open plek in 't bos
Was schitterlicht van sterrenglans.
Tinúviel die danste daar
Op tonen van een fluit op 't mos
En sterrenlicht glansde in heur haar
En ook haar kleed was lichtomkranst
It's very beatiful. The Dutch translation is very good. It captures the atmosphere from the original very accurately and the translations of the poems are fantastic. They seem original, not like translations at all. The rhyme scheme is exactly the same as the originals.
The translator (Max Schuchart) actually won an award for his translation of The Lord of the Rings. I believe it was the first translation. Schuchart worked pretty closely with Tolkien to ensure accuracy.
They disagreed at first about whether the names of the Hobbits and the place names in the Shire should be translated or not. Tolkien thought they shouldn't be translated, but Schuchart argued that translating them into Dutch would allow Dutch readers to identify with the Hobbits. I believe he convinced Tolkien in the end.
I'm curious if the names of the Hobbits, the Shire and the places in the Shire have been translated in other translations of LOTR?
By the way, I was actually named after Pippin, who is called Pepijn in the Dutch translation...
Posted by Pepijn Schmitz @ 2001 Jun 04 03:53 PM EST
Regarding tunes: Tolkien said that the tune he had in mind when writing Sam's troll song (A troll sat alone on a seat of stone...) was The Fox (the fox went out on a chilly night...) I always heard it to that tune before I discovered that that was what he intended. I sing "In Western Lands Beneath the Sun" to the tune of "Star of the County Down" (I think this song comes in Book 7, but it may be at the end of Book 5). And I sing "A Elbereth Gilthoniel" to the tune "Waly Waly". I have to repeat the second (silivren penna miriel) line after the third line (o galadremin enorath), but other than that it fits. (Sorry if I'm misspelling; I don't have it in front of me. By the way, here's a singible translation I put together:
O Elebereth who lit the stars,
The glittering jeweled light falls down
From heaven's starry host on high
The crystal light falls slanting down.
I look to homelands far away
From here beneath the tangled trees.
O Lady Fair, I sing to thee,
From here beyond the sundering seas.
Posted by Karen @ 2001 Jun 04 04:11 PM EST
Whew, I can't count. Did I say book 7? Oh,well... I think the song "In Western Lands" comes in book 6... (I don't think this is a spoiler since the song title doesn't give anything away.)
Posted by Karen @ 2001 Jun 04 10:43 PM EST
Pepijn,
In our Czech version the names of hobbits, some other characters and some places were translated. Every time the English original name has some English meaning or sounds similar to some English word, it is translated. Especially in the Shire of course for it is meant to be most familiar to readers.
For example Peregrin Took is in Czech Peregrin Bral: verb TOOK is the past tense from TAKE (though I'm not sure if it was meant to be) and BRAL in Czech is past tense of a verb which means TAKE. Of course there could be another word than BRAL as the word TOOK could be translated some other way if you put it in a sentence (the words could be for example VZAL, SEBRAL...) but I think BRAL is a great translation. It has the same rythm as TOOK and it is not so obvious that it is a verb. Also other words connected with TOOK (like TOOKISH) sound good in Czech with BRAL.
Oopf, so this is my linguistic essay :o)
Oh yes, I know in French version the hobbit names are also translated - I saw it on a french LotR site.
You are lucky that your translator could discuss the translation with Tolkien himself. It was not possible for us as our translation is only some 10 years old. But I think we have a good one anyway :o)
Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 05 04:34 AM EST
Hi Katerina,
In the Dutch version, Pippins last name is 'Toek', which is not even a Dutch word, let alone the past tense of the verb which means 'to take' (which would be 'nemen'). It was obviously chosen to sound the same as the original, since 'Toek' is pronounced exactly the same as 'Took' is in English. Despite not actually being a Dutch word it does sound Dutch, so it still allows the reader to identify with Pippin.
Posted by Pepijn Schmitz @ 2001 Jun 05 08:25 AM EST
Pepijn,
yes, I think that's the most important thing in translations - that it sounds as if it is a usual word.
Not all names were translated like TOOK because it would have had a bad sound, but some of them were just changed a little to sound more Czech. For example PIPPIN is just PIPIN :o), Samwise is SAMVÌD, -VÌD is not a word but it's an ending based on the fact that someone is clever, that he knows a lot. Isn't it good translation for WISE? Important is that this Czech ending is being used in Czech language so it sound very familiar to us. So the name sounds Czech, the meaning of the name is similar to the original and the visual appearance of the name is almost the same.
Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 06 02:20 AM EST
Pejpin and Katerina
In the swedish translation they have altered the names when needed, and usually quite well, I think. Pippin/Peregrin Took is the same, which I always liked since the swedish (and norwegian) word "tok" means someone who is a bit crazy, or does foolish things - just like Pippin. I always assumed that Tolkien got his inspiration for the name from that scandinavian origin, and not from the past tense of the verb "take"!? And I thought it was pronounces tooook, and not with a short o, like in the verb "took". But those are just my assumptions, I may be quite wrong.
Young mr Brandybucks name is changed to Vinbock, "vin" meaning wine. A good change, Brandybuck wouldn't sound very hobbitish in swedish ears. And then there's Strider, who is named Vidstige. The word gives you an association to somenone who takes wide steps, or walks on many paths - just like "Strider". Vidstige is a very good name, I think.
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 06 04:25 AM EST
Well, that's the beauty of every single languague: you can explain and translate the word in many ways. In Czech it would be meaningless if Pippin has the name TOOK, not mentioning that it wouldn't be so clear for us how to read it :o) (Well, we could make it UK which means something like KNOCK, he was a little bit "knocked" in his head :o) but it would make his name TOO comical i think:)
Interresting is that I read the book in Czech first and I didn't realize that the name BRAL should have some meaning untill I knew that in original it is TOOK.
Strider is hard to translate in Czech not to make it breaknecking to pronounce it. So our Czech version uses the word CHODEC which means simply WALKER. There is a difference between WALK and STRIDE (= make long steps) but CHODEC was the best word that could be used.
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 06 08:40 AM EST
And one more thing concerning languages: I suppose Swedish is a little bit closer to English then Czech. Czech is a Slavic language and I think making the hobbit names to sound Slavic was necessary to bring them closer to the reader.
Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 06 08:53 AM EST
First, I just wanted to add my voice to the many thanking Debbie for taking us along on this wonderful journey of hers! I also hope we can continue these sorts of discussions through The Silmarillion....
The discussion of how LotR has been translated into other languages is fascinating; after reading Tolkien's notes on translation, I've wondered how other translations would turn out, so it's great to hear about it from readers around the world!
I was surprised, however, by the Czech translation as "Peregrin Bral". As a native English speaker, the resemblance of the name "Took" to the normal word "took" never occurred to me; it just seemed a name with a certain "flavor" but no meaning. However, "Peregrin" was clearly derived from the word "peregrine", meaning wandering, restless, or mobile, which was quite prophetic in Pippin's case.
I just double-checked, and in fact, in Appendix F, Tolkien gives "Took" as an example of one of the few Westron names that had no meaning, and for which he simply anglicised the spelling instead of "translating". This would mean that a foreign translator should just stick with the sound of "Took"; based on his description later in the same appendix, "Peregrin" should be translated to something "high-sounding" and legendary, with a similar meaning.
I'm glad to hear that Strider was translated as best as possible, but I can't say why until Debbie makes it to Chapter 8. :-)
Posted by Olorin @ 2001 Jun 07 01:55 AM EST
Olorin,
OK, OK, I give up! :o)))
I don't want to argue about translations but I can't help myself write one more post :o)
1)
You wrote that "as a native English speaker, the resemblance of the name "Took" to the normal word "took" never occurred to me; it just seemed a name with a certain "flavor" but no meaning"
But that's exactly what I think about the Czech name BRAL! It has some "flavour" but the meaning if the verb bral is not manifest at all.
2)... "Peregrin" was clearly derived from the word "peregrine", meaning wandering, restless, or mobile, which was quite prophetic in Pippin's case.
- the word peregrine comes from Latin PEREGRINUS and it is not meaningless in Czech, thouth I admit I didn't know the meaning untill I looked it up in encyclopaedia :o)
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 07 07:35 AM EST
Katerina,
Thanks for your clarifications; I'm glad "Peregrin Bral" was a better choice than I thought at first! :-)
Posted by Olorin @ 2001 Jun 07 06:06 PM EST
We have listened to the "Mind's Eye" version on tape for years and really enjoyed it. It plays exactly the length of time from Arkansas to/from Florida and makes the time seem to fly. Now after listening to all of you I've got to get the BBC version and see what makes the "Mind's Eye" so horrible by comparison. Thanks for the info!
Posted by dave @ 2001 Jun 09 10:10 AM EST
I just was thinking. We've even had comments about people who liked the animated movie. I some of us enjoy the story so well, we are willing to accept anything just because it helps us see the story quicker. I've read the hobbit a zillion times, and still I love to watch the RB version. Usually I then watch the animated film followed by the RB RTOTK. There are absolutely horrid places in all if you want to be a purist, but I see them more as old friends who have their flaws I can ignore. From everyone's comments, the tapes I've listened to are not the best either, but we've really enjoyed them. The LP of the Hobbit is just full of songs and so are the RB versions. I love to hear the singing. I play the songs on the piano and hum to myself all the time. "The Road Goes Ever On" has got to be one of the best. I won't mention others for fear of spoilers.
I know the RB Hobbit leaves out good parts (I won't mention here - spoilers), but I still see those parts in my mind. It's like two people telling the same story. One always tells something the other leaves out. This is why Arwen's role in the movie won't bother me at all. I do think that the movie will be from a different point of view than the book. Movies are frequently from an omnescient viewpoint where, as Debbie's mentioned, the books are almost exclusively from a hobbit viewpoint. That's why Arwen's role is so small in the book, and why Bombadil's is so much larger. When you take a greater viewpoint, Bombadil seems to not only slightly involved whereas Arwen is intimately involved.
Posted by dave @ 2001 Jun 10 08:47 AM EST
Dave,
That difference in viewpoint is the best explanation (justification?) I've heard yet for the differences in scene selection, etc., in the movies. (For example, there's a scene of a private moment between Arwen and Aragorn in the 2nd trailer, and we can be pretty sure there weren't any hobbits behind the bushes spying on them!)
I'll keep that in mind when watching the movies (if December ever gets here...) - thanks!
Posted by Olorin @ 2001 Jun 10 08:05 PM EST
Part of the problem with seeing more of Arwen is not necissarily added scenes, if done right they can enhance her part in the story with out changing anything, it is the fact that she is appearing in scenes from the book that she WASN'T in.
Posted by J'nae Rae Campbell @ 2001 Jun 11 02:32 PM EST
I agree that Frodo should be alone on the horse and that it should be Glorfindel's horse, but hopefully most of her scenes will be derived from the appendix which would still be valid Middle Earth history and part of the story.
Posted by dave @ 2001 Jun 11 06:36 PM EST
I'm willing to approach the "Arwen rides off with Frodo" scene with an open mind. I don't think I would like it if Arwen was supposed to have done all the running around beforehand that Glorfindel did, but if she met them on the road (perhaps accompanying Glorfindel?), that would seem reasonably in-character, especially if she knew Aragorn was going to be with them. ;-)
Also, I think her plan ("Hon mabathon. Rochon ellint im!") is much more sensible than having Frodo ride off alone pursued by Nazgul, however wonderful Glorfindel's horse might be!
I guess I'm not quite as much a purist as some, at least regarding something like this. Now if she'd fought at Helm's Deep or something like that (as was apparently considered and then dropped), I'd be really upset! :-)
I've just been reading _Letters_, and I liked Tolkien's attitude towards the horrible things being done in the animated film adaptations. He understood completely that the *events* would need to be altered in telling the story in movie form, but he was adamant that the *places* and *characters* be true to his work. I suspect he would be more aghast at Legolas having blonde hair than at Arwen riding to the ford to meet the party....
Posted by Olorin @ 2001 Jun 12 01:57 AM EST
Arwen riding with Frodo can greatly effect the scene. If she is in control of the horse, why stop and confront the wraiths as Frodo did? Also, there was no garauntee of when Aragorn would be coming that way, so why would she be meeting him on the road more than a days ride from Rivendell?
As too Legolas' blonde hair, Tolkien has himsefl to blame for being so vague with his description. Legolas refers, often enough, to hiself being Sylvan. The Sylvan Elves are described as being blonde. One would have to know that Legolas' father King Thranduil is Sindarin and that that line of Elves are either silver or black haired. So even if he wasn't blonde, the question is still what color is it? One could theoreticly argue that his mother who is never mentioned could be Sylvan and he got her color of blonde. And don't try to argue that it is geneticaly imposible because of the way dominants and recesives work. After all the Noldor are all black haired except one house that has the blood of the Vanyar in it. I, myself, after reading "The Silmarillion" have always thought of him as black haired. Before that, well I saw LotR long before I read it.
Posted by J'nae Rae Campbell @ 2001 Jun 12 10:17 AM EST
J'nae,
Good point about his unknown mother; I don't think we know whether or not she was from Doriath or if Thranduil met her after he came to Mirkwood. (And there's no need to dismiss the genetics - it's entirely possible for Thranduil to be carrying a recessive blonde gene, which would allow Legolas to be blonde; we don't know his ancestry all the way back to Cuivienen.) So, you're right; I'll let that be "OK" when I see the movie. :-)
I was just checking theonering.net to take another look at the pictures to see if his hair might actually be silver (it's not - there's plenty of yellow to it), and I noticed in their description of Legolas: "hair color is debated".
http://www.theonering.net/movie/char/legolas.html
Posted by Olorin @ 2001 Jun 12 11:37 PM EST
