The Passing of the Grey Company

Waiting For Frodo has been updated.

Allison called me this morning to warn me NOT to read the long list of posts on my last chapter report because of a major spoiler. So don't worry, I won't. She called me just in time, to tell you the truth, because I had been immensely curious about the incredible number of postings and reading through that page was going to be the first thing on my "to do" list this morning (i.e. I was literally about 5 minutes away from reading those posts). Thanks, Allison!!

But back to Chapter II...

Immensely curious about the flag thingy that Galadriel made. Even when it's unfurled at the end of this chapter, there's not enough light to see what (if anything) was embroidered on it.

When Gimli lightly suggested that he and Legolas visit the caves of wonder, I confess I couldn't help but feel a sense of foreboding. Will they be able to carry out their plans of friendship when all this is over? WILL THEY BOTH STILL BE ALIVE??!! Sigh.

I felt for poor Merry near the beginning of the chapter, when he felt like extra baggage. This was a wonderful chapter for getting to know Merry better; up to now, he's seemed fairly two-dimensional to me. I find his obvious affection for Pippin touching, how he misses the hobbit's cheerfulness, his companionship. They had better have the chance to be reunited, or I'm going to be pretty upset. WILL THEY BOTH STILL BE ALIVE??!!

I cheered for Merry when he offered his service to Theoden (though I'm still not sure if Theoden deserves this!), and the following passage:


'There are no great weapon-hoards here, lord,' answered Eomer. 'Maybe a light helm might be found to fit him; but we have no mail or sword for one of his stature.'

'I have a sword,' said Merry, climbing from his seat, and drawing from its black sheath his small bright blad. Filled suddenly with love for this old man, he knelt on one knee, and took his hand and kissed it. 'May I lay the sword of Meriadoc of the Shire on your lap, Theoden King?" he cried. 'Receive my service, if you will!'


I'm somewhat confused, though, by why Merry feels so affectionately towards Theoden. What has Theoden done to deserve this? I also wasn't impressed by his reaction to Merry's heartfelt 'As a father you shall be to me', when he replied only with, 'For a little while'. What the heck is that supposed to mean?!?

Whatever the Paths of the Dead are, they sound pretty frightening, judging from the reactions of everyone to Aragorn's announcement.

So Aragorn looked in the Stone of Orthanc. I wondered briefly why Tolkien chose to have Aragorn tell the others of the fact, rather than have the scene play out in the book narrative instead. But then I realized (correct me if I'm wrong here) that the only mental musings we ever get to see in detail in LOTR is that of the hobbits. Which works very well, in my opinion, simply because the hobbits are more down-to-earth than the other characters, and most people will likely find it easier to identify with them than other characters.

I'm really enjoying the obvious bond between Gimli and Legolas. And the fact that they agree to accompany Aragorn on the Paths of the Dead despite everyone's obvious fear of the same is yet another indication (as if we needed anymore :-)) of their courage and loyalty.

And very VERY cool that Eowyn wants to ride with them. Ok, so I admit I underestimated her earlier on. *LOVED* the scene between her and Aragorn, when she's obviously ticked off about being told to stay home where she belongs, when what she really yearns to do is go adventuring with the guys. YAY for Eowyn; I really like her!! I was immensely disappointed when she wasn't permitted to come.

Clarification: I am -not- a raving man-bashing feminist, and I completely understand that it was custom for women to be much more subservient in the past, and in very traditional settings. But I also can't help but think that even those women could exhibit a spark of personality beyond the quiet and meek "flit about in the background serving tea" cliche. Take Jane Eyre, for instance. I like the fact that Bronte manages to show Jane's independent spirit while still working within the norms of society at that time.

But I digress. I guess I was just alarmed by some of the comments in response to my earlier complaint about the meek portrayal of Arwen and Eowyn. I wasn't raging about Tolkien's supposed male chauvinism, but only wistfully wishing that the female characters were a bit more well-rounded. And it's being proven that I spoke too soon, of course (as seems to be the norm during my LOTR reports!).

Very creepy ending to the chapter, with the Dead following the group.

On to Chapter III....

[Previous entry: "The Return of the King: BOOK V - Chapter 1"] [Next entry: "The Return of the King: BOOK V - Chapter 3"]

Posted by Luisa @ 2001 Jun 04 08:32 AM EST

The thing that made Merry feel affectionate towards Theoden was the latter's interest in his herblore from the Shire. One of those cases where the only explanation Tolkien gives us of an event is the fact that its occured at all. He then leaves it up to us to sort out the whys and wherefores.

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 04 08:41 AM EST

Debbie, et al.

Greetings! I discovered your wonderful journey through LOTR from the TORN link, and am glad to have been able to join while the story was still in progress. On a biographical note, I actually read the original Hobbit (or was read to, my father started to read it to me when I was in 2nd grade --1962). It was quite a leap from the Gollum of that book even to the Gollum of the later Hobbit, let alone LOTR. Since then I have read the story to my younger brothers and now to my own children.

I would like to take the liberty of correcting your impression of the flag: It was 'wrought in secret by the Lady of Rivendell', not Galadriel. Enjoy your next reading!

David

Posted by David @ 2001 Jun 04 08:53 AM EST

I find Merry pledging himself to Theoden very moving. Poor Merry, over the course of Books 2,3 and 5 he's been taken away from everyone on his journey that he loves and holds dear, first Frodo and Sam, then Pippin (and Gandalf) and now Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli. Left alone and vulnerable this grand and kindly king chooses to take an interest in him, keeps him close and wants to hear stories of much gentler days in The Shire. I can see why Merry in a burst of gratitude and emotion might choose to pledge himself to Theoden. Also, Theoden's statement, "For a little while.", like much of Tolkien, may be directed at Merry, but isn't really referring to Merry :).

You've heard this before, Deb, but I think Theoden is a much cooler character than you're giving him credit for :).

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 04 09:04 AM EST

Debbie,

Welcome back! :))))

Yes, I have some problems with Tolkien's women too, in about the same way as you do. I also realize that it is the right way to present female characters in this kind of story. But personally, I've never been much of a "in the background serving tea" kind of woman, so I can't help feeling that I lack women to identify with in LoTR. So thank you Tolkien for Eowyn! But of course, identification doesn't have to be with people of the same sex, so I identify a lot with the hobbits and many others too. Aragorn sometimes, and especially Faramir. He, after many readings, is my favourite Man! He's the one I've fallen most in love with, to tell you the truth. ;)

Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 04 09:36 AM EST

Hi Deb,

So glad to read that you're enjoying the book :)

A note on Aragorn and the Palantir: it always disappointed me that we don't see it happen in the book. I'm really hoping PJ adds it to the movie.

Posted by Huan @ 2001 Jun 04 09:39 AM EST

Deb, now that I've managed to head you off the spoiler pass of chapter 1, it occurs to me that there really is no need for you to avoid that interesting conversation over there altogether. The spoiler everyone was concerned about doesn't happen until about the 80th letter in the thread.

Here's my advice: Feel free to read the thread, but when you get to my letter from yesterday where I say that I just bought "The Atlas of Middle-Earth" and "Tales of The Perilous Realm", then stop reading. You'll be 4-5 letters away from the spoiler then, but also a good 70 to 80 letters into the thread. I don't see why you should have to be kept away from the rest of that dialogue for the better part of week because of a simple mistake. I'd encourage you to read the rest of the thread now.

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 04 09:40 AM EST

Debbie,
I’m glad you’re back again :o)
I agree Eowyn is a great character, even though I’m not much fond of the way she speaks of fighting :o)
I just LOVE the relationships between Sam + Frodo and Merry + Pippin! It’s so touching.

Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 04 09:44 AM EST

Katarina,
Faramir is my favorite Man too :o)))) I understand you fully! But I'll better not tell more about him cos I'm afraid of beeing a spoilermaker.

Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 04 09:55 AM EST

Hey there !
Yeah, Faramir is pretty cool .
Re. Aragorn looking into the palantir : this is actually "shown" in the BBC audio version, if only a short scene, and although you can't see it , it is still VERY creepy ! Can't wait to see what they do with it in the film !

Posted by Fiona @ 2001 Jun 04 10:55 AM EST

Thank Iluvatar your back.

There are lots of web sites where we Tolkien fans can get info, but this has really become a gathering (or Moot) of regular Tolkein loving people. Just like the feeling at the end of the book (wishing there was another 1000 pages to read) I hope some how we can continue this small community after Deb finishes.

About Merry and Theoden, Merry has seen some amazing stuff, but never a king on a throne who commands so many people. This may be a reason he offers his service to the King of the Mark.

Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 04 11:09 AM EST

Good point about the community, Big Mike! Maybe we can convince Deb to read the Hobbit, although it won't be quite so "revealing" as the LotR, now that she knows somewhat of the ending.

Or how about a community reading of the Silmarillion? Anyone interested can get a copy, then we each try to read the same chapter by a set date and then discuss it together in this forum. Or, if Deb's not interested in using this forum for it I could set up a forum on my server. Anyone interested? It could be very interesting to get first time readers together with Silmarillion vets in a discussion.

Posted by Lindo @ 2001 Jun 04 11:30 AM EST

Allison/Debbie ... SORRY; REALLY SORRY ... do you know how this stuff is set up? Maybe you could go and edit the stuff in the database OR the flat text files ... Or give me some contact information in case it´s not your server etc - shouldn´t be to hard to delete that post ... wrong language simply ... the pitfalls of thinking in one language and posting in another ...
sorry ...

Posted by Ioreth @ 2001 Jun 04 12:09 PM EST

Hi ! I am enjoying this link very much. Thanks for all the great insights. I have read LOTR many times, on and off since about 1978, yikes! I have never read Silmarillion, although I think I do own a copy. I have already re-read LOTR in preparation for the movie. This might be a good time to try something new.

Can't wait for your next chapter.

Posted by Alison @ 2001 Jun 04 12:22 PM EST

Again, Ioreth, relax, it's all taken care of :). I was sure from the start it was an honest mistake and was just glad to be in a close enough connection to Debbie to call her before she read it. She can read 2/3's of the thread now and finish reading the thread in a few days when she finishes chapter 6.

Truly, I love the fact that there are so many posters here whose language of origin isn't English or speak English and something else. It makes this board such a wonderful experience and has really opened me up even further in my appreciation of Tolkien's literature. I've enjoyed your comments a lot so forgive yourself and we'll continue the journey :).

But do be careful :).

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 04 12:24 PM EST

Huan: Respectfully disagree.

I don't want to see the scene with the Palanteir, or any number of other scenes that would destroy the element of Sauron's character that makes him easily the most creepy of any literary villian: He is always kept offstage.

Think about it. He's talked about. His presense is felt. Surely he casts his influence across the land, and his shadow falls on the world -- but you never see him. I can't think of anyway to BRING him onstage without severely lessening his impact.

Rob

Posted by Rob Wynne @ 2001 Jun 04 12:42 PM EST

I will! :-)
Katarina (from Sweden) - perhaps you could mail me, I tried to send an email but it bounced back for some reason!

Posted by Ioreth @ 2001 Jun 04 12:43 PM EST

Rob, you're going to be disappointed, I suspect. I don't know if Sauron is going to be shown during the bulk of the movies, but he's definitely shown during a flashback to the Last Alliance. Really, though, I think that's almost necessary. Its not quite sufficient for everyone to keep saying how scary he is without us ever seeing any evidence that he did, at one time, possess such terrifying physical power. During the rest of the movie, there'll have to be someway of representing him (such as when Frodo sees the Great Eye in the Mirror of Galadriel) but I agree that I'd rather have the Aragorn/palantir seen left off-screen.

Posted by Nathan Mead @ 2001 Jun 04 12:53 PM EST

Debbie, it's wonderful to have you back.

As an unabashed feminist, I had my own issues with the Lady of Rohan for about ten years, during re-reads Nos. 10-15. The women of LOTR are debated with passionate and considered views on both sides of the argument. Eowyn and I are much better friends now, and I admire her greatly.

You are absolutely correct in your observations about why Aragorn's struggle occurs off camera. The story is mostly told from the hobbit point of view, allowing the "Wise" to explain these great
events to mere hobbits like us. Gandalf says as much to Pippin in the previous chapter before they meet Denethor. Gandalf exclaims something to the effect of, "if you've gone through all this with your eyes closed, open them now!"

I have always really liked the emotions surrounding the Stone of Orthanc that culminate here --
Wormtongue throwing it out the window and Saruman's overheard shriek (imagine THAT confrontation), Pippin's fascination with it, Gandalf's honest confession to Pippin about how even he wanted to succumb to it, Gandalf's humility when presenting it to Aragorn, and then, what you have just read, Aragorn's statement to Gimli that he had the right, but barely the strength to
look into it. The Stone is a clever device for setting these important events in motion and is a wonderful window into many characters.

As for Merry and Pippin, the actors playing them have also commented on the trauma of their separation in an e online interview.

Posted by Tish @ 2001 Jun 04 01:07 PM EST

Ioreth: I re-read your post and being from Sweden I do now understand what happened, and the point you were trying to make on translation. (Which was a good one!) I'm glad that you dared to come back!

I'm poping back in for the third time today... just hoping to find another chapter report.

Debbie, are you going to go one chapter a day? That will be painful... :-) But I do understand if you're trying to have a life aswell as throwing us (the hungry wolves) something to keep us happy.
And you really do keep me happy, love every bit of it! Thank you!

Posted by Martin @ 2001 Jun 04 01:12 PM EST

I agree that never having any clear image of Sauron increases his dreadfulness.

It seemed to me that Aragorn taking back the the palantir was an interesting highlite of his character. He just sort of goes off, looks into the palantir, contacts Sauron, and lets him know he (Aragorn) is there, and taking back what is righfully his. So he's done something very few might be able to do, confront Sauron (albeit at a distance) and not loose control to the Dark Lord.

Posted by Greg Denby @ 2001 Jun 04 01:12 PM EST

Faramir is my favorite guy too! And Éowyn is my favorite character in any book I've ever read!

Posted by talierin @ 2001 Jun 04 01:13 PM EST

Rob, Nathan,

I think you are both correct regarding Sauron. Tolkien was absolutely right never to show him, because any literal depiction would inevitably lessen his impact. However, if Peter Jackson shows him at an earlier time, before he had grown to his present stage of power, then this does not obviate the dramatic impact of the keeping the current Sauron offstage. If he does choose to depict Sauron as he is during the actual events of LOTR, then I might have issues with it, although I'm certainly willing to keep an open mind. I've been somewhat chastised by what I've already seen of the LOTR movies. After Ralph Bakshi's disgustingly bad attempt (and Rankin Bass' somewhat less odious version of the Hobbitt), I was convinced that LOTR was simply impossible to bring to the screen properly. It now appears that I was wrong about that, so I'm willing to cut PJ quite a lot of slack if he chooses to anything that upon first impulse I might disagree with...:-)

Posted by Jeff Bohnhoff @ 2001 Jun 04 01:16 PM EST

I've always felt too that Merry's attachment to Theoden seems to come somewhat unexpectedly. However, I'm such a sentimental softie, and I find it so touching, that I overlook the suddenness of it. I just love stories where someone seems irretrivably lost, amd manages to redeem himself, as Theoden does earlier in Book 3. Merry's pledge to him just sort of caps the whole thing, and always brings a lump to my throat. It's interesting seeing the parallels and contrasts between Merry's relationship with Theoden, and Pippin's with Denethor.

Posted by Jeff Bohnhoff @ 2001 Jun 04 01:25 PM EST

You can have Aragorn challenge Sauron for control of the Palantir without seeing Sauron. Admittedly, it would require a lot of great acting by Viggo, but it's possible.
Personally, I'd love to see Sauron, but I know that that is not a universal opinion.

Posted by Huan @ 2001 Jun 04 01:30 PM EST

It'll be interesting to see how PJ choses to really depict Sauron. The new trailer has a split second shot of him burying a sword in someone's head. But that won't quite cut it for me. I suspect that this'll be shown during the Council, when Elrond reveals exactly how deadly the threat is that faces everyone (even worse than what the Ringwraiths have already shown) - but Sauron as a big guy with a sword doesn't seem to really do this. How should he be portrayed to really show everyone that, with the Ring, Sauron is one major bad-ass?

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 04 01:31 PM EST

Huan, I've always thought that the Aragorn/Sauron scene should be explained after the fact by him, not actually shown. The fact that he comes out with greyed hair and speaks of the confrontation as he does should be all that's necessary. Actually showing it wouldn't work well I think (since the battle is supposed to be entirely in the mind, as I read it)

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 04 01:34 PM EST

About the female characters in LOTR....I've never felt there was a meek, "in the background serving tea" quality to them. As we've already seen, Eowyn has a lot more fire, spunk, and independence in her than originally thought. It was probably easy to mistake deference to her king and courtesy to guests as meekness, but it's become obvious in this chapter that she sees herself as being just as much a warrior as the men in her life. Another woman in the book, Galadriel, is anything but meek and unassuming. Even warriors as far away as Rohan and Gondor are uneasy just talking about her. And from the Fellowships dealings and councils with her, I think it's obvious that she is a woman of incredible power and wisdom, much like Elrond. The only other woman we see in the story is Arwen, and frankly I don't think that it's fair to label her in any way because we don't really know much about her. We know that she's exceedingly fair and that she's Aragorn's love interest. We have had no direct interaction with her at all really (that I remember anyway) so it's hard to tell what she's really like. But that's it. Three women characters of any significance in the story....if anything, it's not the quality of these women characters that bothers me so much as the LACK of women in LOTR. So all in all, as a woman, I'd have to say that I've never had a problem with Tolkien's women...I only WISH I was as cool as Galadriel or Eowyn ;)

Posted by Sericite @ 2001 Jun 04 01:46 PM EST

They could just show Aragorn's end of the palantir conversation, but they'll probably show Sauron when Pippin looks in it.

Is Debbie going to read Appendix A
too? I'd love to see comments on that, and it does include more on Arwen.

Posted by Robert @ 2001 Jun 04 01:57 PM EST

Nathan,

In a couple days, I'll post my idea for how the Aragorn-Sauron scene should play out. I won't do it yet because it potentially has spoilers and I don't want to ruin it for Deb. :)

The other problem is, this movie already has tons of exposition. It's far easier to show the palantir battle than to describe it (and cooler, imo)

Posted by Huan @ 2001 Jun 04 02:00 PM EST

Hi, this is my first posting here... I absolutely love the site.

I felt compelled to comment on the topic of Merry and his pledge to Theoden (since for as long as I can remember Theoden has been my favorite "supporting" character in the book). We meet Theoden when he is in decline, poisoned by the influence of Saruman via Wormtongue, and though it is only briefly alluded to in that first meeting, only days after the death of his only child and heir, Theodred. Is there any wonder that the man is depressed?!?

Despite his depression and enfeeblement, Theoden still commands not only the actions of his people, but their love and respect as well. He has been a great king in the past and with his healing by Gandalf becomes much his old self again.

I always though Theoden had a real presence -- he reminds me very much of my own grandfather, and that Merry responded to him in the same way. Perhaps the kindness that Theoden shows to Merry is also filling some of the void in Theoden due to the loss of his son.

And as for the comment "For a little while" this has more to do with Theoden's belief that despite their efforts they are doomed to defeat... He does not believe that, despite his new vigour and heart, there is really much chance that his people will survive the coming showdown with the forces of Evil.

Posted by Franc @ 2001 Jun 04 02:05 PM EST

I agree the showing Sauron would lessen his imapct. But as I have said here before....putting this epic tale on film may lessen the image of every character or race of characters. I always imagined elves to be much more beautiful that mere humans and the balrog to be scary beond imagination. I guess that may change after the movies.

Someone mentioned the cartoon versions. I have always kind of liked the Bashki film. It has a lot of wierd live action shadows mixed with differing styles of animation but I feel that Bashki tried to stay true to the book. I wish he would have followed up and finnished it. I think they depicted Gollum wonderfully. I have had sound clips from that movie on my computers for over 6 years. Every e-mail I get sounds the horn of Helm's Deep.

As for the Rankin Bass Hobbit and RoTK. Those are horrible. They dipict elves as old decrepid creatures that are ugly. I tend to think that they butchered the story of RoTK. The Hobbit isn't so bad because that story is for kids. It's like they don't take the stories seriously.....I just burns me. The narative is looking back with the hobbits and elves all gathered singing "Frodo of the......."

Can't finish that because it would be a spoiler.

Are there other views on the Cartoon movies?

Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 04 02:40 PM EST

Arwen:
There is a lot about her in the books if you just think of her life. She must have been VERY patient and cool in a way, strong and calm - you know what I mean? Much more elvish than Eowyn of cours. She's never mixed into matters of men, but she was not afraid. It just was not her business. She was waiting and it requires a big strength.

We can discuss it with Debbie as soon as she reads everything about her. I'm terribly afraid of spoilers now :o))))))

Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 04 02:53 PM EST

I actually have the inverse view from you on the movies. I felt like Bakshi's movie was a slipshod effort where, even if the story was adhered to (sort of), the characters and their presentation were ignored. Aragorn with his miniskirt, Boromir the Barbarian, Sauron (or The Knight Who Says Ni), etc... If you want a good laugh, check out the Tolkien Sarcasm Page review (even Bakshi lovers will enjoy it)...

http://216.254.0.2/~ohh/bakshi.htm

Always had a soft-spot for the RB Hobbit, just because it was my first exposure to Tolkien. Loved Gandalf's voice, Smaug's voice, and the landscapes. Oh, and that opening guitar chord at the beginning has always sounded exactly like Middle Earth to me. 8-)>

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 04 02:58 PM EST

Well Mike, I agree with you about the cartoons. I saw the Rankin Bass hobbit on TV and was only impressed that they actually got it on TV--on reviewing it, it seemed to miss the point of the book. Bakshi's version had a lot of faults (there's a great site that does a scathing analysis of it--on the links of the Tolkien-Sarcasm page), but still, I think parts of it come off (at least as far as they could at the time).

However, the Rankin-Bass Return of the King was, I think, awful. It completely missed the point of the story and, in fact, changed every element they told.

To return to the Silmarillion reading question, I, for one, would enjoy participating in such an endeavor: I've read the Sil, Unfinished tales and all of HOME, and find that each has their own character and beauty. I gave my daughter the Tolkien calendar one year and spent it telling her stories from the Sil. as they unfolded in the images for each month.

As for The Theoden/Denethor parallels, I am reminded of Gandalf's saying, "Theoden is a kindly old man. Denethor is of another sort, proud and subtle, a man of far greater lineage and power, though he is not called a king."

I could picture Theoden listening to hobbit talk for a long time and enjoying the rustic humor of it, while Denethor reminds me of the humorless men of power from history and our own time. NOT someone to trifle with.

Posted by David @ 2001 Jun 04 03:02 PM EST

Mike,

I have to respectfully disagree with you about the Bakshi film. In my opinion, it completely missed the spirit of the books. I never for one moment felt that I was in Middle earth while watching it. Also, I think that the mixture of animation techniquies was a real failure conceptually. All of the good characters were depicted with traditional (and rather pedestrian) animation, while the evil charcters (most specifically the Orcs) were depicted by superimposing some sort of rotoscoping over live actors. Besides the fact that the Orcs looked like something that belonged in a grade B science fiction movie, and were nothing like Tolkien's description of them, they appeared more "real" than any of the protagonists. This had the effect of appearing to make the presence of evil more real than that of good. This was an artistically fatal choice, leaving aside the inaccuracies and outright departures from Prof Tolkien's vision. I honestly can't find anything to commend the Bakshi production.

Posted by Jeff Bohnhoff @ 2001 Jun 04 03:03 PM EST

I LOVED the Rankin-Bass cartoons, and eagerly await a DVD version of them :)

Posted by Huan @ 2001 Jun 04 03:19 PM EST

Nathan: I agree with you about the RB Hobbit. I'm very sentimentally attached to that version because that was my first exposure to Tolkien. I was at the library looking for "the sequel that tells us more about Bilbo's ring" the day after seeing it on TV , so it clearly it stirred something in me. In fact, John and I watched it on video just last night since John has never seen it before and wanted the Hobbit background while he is reading LOTR. Not a bad movie for kids and not a bad intro to Middle-earth. I've shown it in class on occasion. Though it's also a perfect example of how the first visual spoilers one sees of Tolkien don't spoil your reading experience if they don't end up jibing with the images in your imagination :).

As for the Bakshi versions, it's been years since I've seen them. I can remember being really excited when the first one came out and being extremely disappointed in the theatre. All I remember now is being horrified that the hobbits looked like characters from a bad Disney movie and Bakshi experimenting with strange film nouveau black riders- rotoscoping or some such thing? I'm not even sure if I ever saw the second one. Thing is, John is very curious to see them now, too, so no doubt we'll probably rent them to watch again sometime after he finishes LOTR. He wants to see them now but I keep telling him he already knows -enough- spoilers for Book 6 from him having seen the movies years ago, so he should keep some surprises to be read.

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 04 03:23 PM EST

Katerina, I actually agree with what you said about Arwen ultimately. But not until later on in the story, and I didn't want to say too much above for fear of saying too much altogether :) I just feel that at this point in the Return of the King we don't really know much about her at all...but that's probably just my reading of the story :) Everyone reads it a little differently and I've really enjoyed following this site and sharing everyone's opinions (thanks, Debbie).

Posted by Sericite @ 2001 Jun 04 03:32 PM EST

my biggest problem with the Rb Hobbit were the goblins (orcs) - though admittedly, the size of their mouth made the scene where the Goblin King goes to bite off Thorin's head much easier to understand (and pretty damned scary, really!)

you mention a second movie after the Bakshi, Allison - I assume you mean the second Rankin Bass movie? Never cared for that (well, except for one thing, but I won't mention it yet)

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 04 03:40 PM EST

as for female characters, there's only one that needs to be mentioned to show that Tolkien could write some remarkable ones; Luthien. Talk about a woman who never says die!

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 04 03:42 PM EST

Eowyn is the greatest!! Haven't seen the movies for a LONG time, but did see them before I read the books-- wish I hadn't. Granted, I only remembered a few parts, but they were the best parts-- for instance, I couldn't really believe that Gandalf was dead in the first book because I thought he was in the third movie, so that took away from his reappearance in the second book.
On the subject of the Silmarillion, I'm currently reading it for the first time (not too far along yet). I think the language is really beautiful, but there are a lot of names to remember!!
Oh, I agree-- give Theoden a chance, he's pretty cool. Never did like Denethor much, though. Keep up the good work!

Posted by Eowyn Gamgee @ 2001 Jun 04 03:51 PM EST

Thanks for the great comments about the cartoon films. Although there seems to be many differing views I really enjoyed reading them.
I like the Bashki version but I agree that it does not do justice to the books or characters. That's a tall order. (Good luck P.J.)
The Hobbit movie by RB is not that bad as movies go but I don't like the way hobbits and elves look. Bilbo is so fat he could never do any of the things he does with the dwarves.

On a lighter note....I thought people might enjoy this poem I found on TORN. If you haven't read it already.

http://fan.theonering.net/writing/stories/files/whistler_greeneggs.html

Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 04 03:54 PM EST

Ah, good old Whistler. He used to post on the message board I frequent - I miss his input. Great parodist!

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 04 03:59 PM EST

I dicn't like either the Bakshi or Rankin-Bass attempts at filming Tolkien. My daughter's visual conception of the races of Middle Earth was, unfortunately, formed by reading a copy of The Hobbit with illustrations of the R-B version, and now she doesn't think Elijah Woods et al look "right" -- but I think they are as close to my mental image as a person who is not me is likely to get.

As far as women in Tolkien -- don't read it yet, Debbie, but in The Green Books on TheOneRing.net, Anwyn has a neat essay titled "Men are from Gondor, Women are from Lothlorien." http://greenbooks.theonering.net/anwyn/files/111099.html But she doesn't mention Luthien much -- now THERE's a good reason to read the Silmarillion! She's a really heroic character.

I like the idea of a group reading of the Silmarillion -- maybe as soon as Debbie finishes LotR? I haven't read it for a few years now.

Posted by Janet Croft @ 2001 Jun 04 04:33 PM EST

Luisa: I was 13 when I fell in love with Aragorn, but it was way back in Bree. :-)

Posted by Karen @ 2001 Jun 04 05:05 PM EST

WRT female characters in Tolkien's writings, I think that, within the context of the period of the writing and the historical perspective of the legends JRRT does an admirable job of presenting women as strong characters.

It's really quite rare in our male dominated history to find cases of strong female figures, certainly prior to the 1950s (when Tolkien was creating the basis for most of his writings). Yet he gave us strong characters like Galadriel and Eowyn in LotR and Luthien Tinuviel, Melian and Elwing (no one's mentioned her part in the voyage of Earendil to Valinor resulting in the ultimate liberation of Middle Earth from the clutches of Morgoth) plus the "female" Valar in the Silmarillion. Aside from them I see lesser characters like Finduilas, Morwen, Idril and even Rose Cotton as representing incredible strength of character and determination in their presentation.

Posted by Lindo @ 2001 Jun 04 05:24 PM EST

Lindo,

Great idea about inviting this community to a reading group for The Silmarillion later on! :))))

I actually had the exact same thoughts today going home on the subway, and was thinking about how to suggest it on this board...

I've tried to read Silmarillion - in swedish - two times, but failed. The discussions on this site has made me decide to give it another attempt, this time in english though. And I would really appreciate reading it together with a community of other first time readers and old veterans. Count me in!

Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 04 05:28 PM EST

At the request of Allison, here's the highlights of the other two books of Debbie's adventure.

Through Books 1 and 2 she was rooting for Sam and the other Hobbits, but not quite yet for Frodo. Very interesting to see how her view of characters changed through the chapters, especially Faramir and Gollum. Enjoy!

Book 3 –
Chapter 1: “AUGH. I can't believe Tolkien killed off Boromir in the first chapter!!” & “And if anything bad happens to Sam before he has a chance to use Galadriel's orchard earth, I'm going to be really upset” (and we’re off with a good quote! :-)...) & “a promising start to Book III!”
Chapter 2: “I quite like Pippin” & “The Riders of Rohan sound pretty cool.” & “...IS GANDALF MAYBE STILL ALIVE SOMEHOW????!!!” & “If anything bad has happened to Pippin and Merry, I'm going to be really upset.” (you gotta love it when she says these)
Chapter 3: “I like Pippin more and more.” & “...hobbits are definitely more complex and of tougher stuff than they first appear.”
Chapter 4: “I -love- Treebeard” & “I hope the Ents end up finding the Entwives.” & (once again) “I hope nothing bad happens to Treebeard.” :-)
Chapter 5: “...I gasped out loud and yelled...YAY!!! GANDALF'S ALIVE!!!” & “Gimli's starting to grow on me...now I find his character more appealing than Aragorn's.” & “at least Gandalf's alive. :-)”
Chapter 6: “Love the intrigue and suspense in this chapter.” & “Was somewhat taken aback by the spark between Aragorn and Eowyn.” & “not too crazy about these quiet and meek Tolkien women...I want more Galadriel!”
Chapter 7: “I spent the whole chapter hoping desperately that nothing would happen to characters I really liked.” & “Love the friendly rivalry between Gimli and Legolas...” & “I hope Gimli's okay... :-( ”
Chapter 8: “Yay! Gimli's ok!” & “Why do I get the feeling that one of them isn't going to make it? :-(
Argh, this is what comes out of actually starting to CARE about this LOTR characters.” & “Cool to see the Ent storyline and this particular thread intersect.”
Chapter 9: “Liked the Ents even more in this chapter.” & (wonderfully confessed) “If something bad -doesn't- end up happening to [Wormtongue], I'm going to be upset.” lol :-)
Chapter 10: “Okay, so maybe I underestimated Saruman in the last chapter.”
Chapter 11: “Hey, when are we going to find out what happened to Frodo and Sam?!?” & “Poor, foolish Pippin!” & “Yes, yes, I admit I was wrong about Gandalf.” & “I hope we go back to Frodo and Sam soon.”

Book 4 –
Chapter 1: “I don't trust Smeagol/Gollum...” & “I still don't trust Gollum.” & “Pretty exciting; I'm hooked.”
Chapter 2: “Like Sam, I'm highly curious about who "She" was...” & “Must keep reading...”
Chapter 3: “Sam thinks of himself as slow, but I think he's anything but.” & “Good to see that Frodo isn't as trusting and naive as he first appeared.” & “I trust Gollum even less than before.”
Chapter 4: “Frodo seems to be acting a bit drugged in these past few chapters...” & “Faramir and the other Dunedain of the South came across as rather dull...” & “Yay, Sam got to see an Oliphaunt!” & “And what's Gollum up to????”
Chapter 5: “I did cringe along with Frodo when [Sam] openly mentioned the Ring in front of Faramir.” & “I was relieved to see that Faramir didn't try to take the Ring away from Frodo...”
Chapter 6: “Faramir's a pretty fascinating character...I like him a lot better than Boromir.” & “Found Frodo's mercy for Gollum EXTREMELY intriguing.” & “I'd have happily let Faramir and his men shoot the little bugger.” (Ouch, the Two Towers certainly would have been more interesting with Debbie as the tenth member of the Fellowship. :-) Anyone positive Tolkien didn’t slip in a fifth hobbit named Debbie Filkwright?) :-P
Chapter 7: “Still somewhat bewildered by Frodo's compassion for Gollum.” & “IS THIS WHERE ONE OF THE CHARACTERS I CARE ABOUT (I assume Sam, since Frodo obviously has to survive until the end) KICKS THE BUCKET??!!” - (did I just hear someone snigger out there?) :-)
Chapter 8: “The relationship between Frodo and Gollum continues to fascinate me.” & “I do confess that I'm finally starting to warm up to Frodo.” & (Finally!!!!!) If anything bad happens to Frodo, I'm going to be very upset.” (blow of trumpets, release of pigeons, burst of fireworks, pigeon-remains drift to the ground!) & “Augh! I don't want to start caring about all these characters!” - (Too late. :-D )
Chapter 9: “Not looking forward to seeing THIS chapter on film...way too scary!” & “The little ratfink did betray them after all!” & “And so we find out what 'SHE' is!!! (shudder)” & “BUT AUUUUGH, what's happened to Frodo??!! Just when I was starting to really like the guy! This just isn't fair.”
Chapter 10: “I CAN'T BELIEVE Tolkien ended Book IV on an agonizing cliffhanger like that.” & “I felt for poor, loyal Sam in this chapter” & “Okay, so I was more than horrified. I was all teary-eyed in the coffeeshop where I read this chapter, and was vowing to kill Allison next time I saw her about not warning me about this.” & “So Sam did take the Ring after all.... I'll bet you were all sniggering at me back [in Rivendell], knowing how GUILTY I WOULD FEEL AT THIS POINT.”

Not sniggering, we...um...merely smiled knowingly...yeah, that’s it, just smiled. :-)

Posted by McDowalj @ 2001 Jun 04 05:50 PM EST

Debbie

By the way I love the way you ask questions about the survival of Merry, Pippin, Legolas and Gimli today. You are really hooked now, aren't you? The capital letters of those questions are almost like you try to cast a commanding spell on the books!

Well I won't give away a thing. You just have to keep on reading. And I don't mind your going one chapter a day, it only makes this nice discussion last longer.

Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 04 06:05 PM EST

I would also be interested in a discussion of "The Silmarillion."

Posted by J'nae Rae Campbell @ 2001 Jun 04 06:55 PM EST

OK... so Deb's chosen to give me some editing access here and I've gone over and removed the spoiler from Chapter 1, though not the assorted comments of outrage that came after it :). So, rest easy, Ioreth, and Deb is now free to go read that thread whenever she wishes.

But, folks, I don't ever want to have to use that editing access again, especially when there's never any guarantee that I'll read the comment page before Deb does (depending on the time of day).

McDowalj: knowing smiles nothing, I was laughing out loud reading your summary of Book 3 and 4 :D. Noticed this time you couldn't resist adding your own reactions :). Here's the moment when I fell off my chair:

“I do confess that I'm finally starting to warm up to Frodo.” & (Finally!!!!!) If anything bad happens to Frodo, I'm going to be very upset.” (blow of trumpets, release of pigeons, burst of fireworks, pigeon-remains drift to the ground!)"

Whereas I was thinking at that point, oh, way to go, Deb, you take your sweet time and then you finally fall for Frodo in Chapter 8 of Book 4 of all places- didn't we go through this same process with Gandalf way back in Book 2 with you only deciding you liked him halfway through Moria? :) Time to push you through to the end of Book 4...

And you can bet I'll look forward to your final analysis of Book 5 and 6 when the time comes, McDowalj.

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 04 06:56 PM EST

Regarding this whole Rankin-Bass bashing jive that's been going on up in here...I must declare that "The Hobbit", anyway, is one of my favorite bits of film anywhere (it's been ages since I saw the RB LOTR movies, and may even be mixing them up with the Bakshi version). Smaug, the way he says, "Well, thief? I can smell you...feel your air...", gives me chills! And that, in my opinion, is the definitive Gollum. the sibilant breathing, the muttering, the half-lidded, blind looking eyes, that is what I envision Gollum to look like. Period. Yes, it may be childlike, but it isn't childish. And, isn't that why we like this stuff anyway?

Posted by Chris H. @ 2001 Jun 04 07:23 PM EST

My real problem with the RB Gollum is how grotesquely it ignores the description TOlkien gave of him in LoTR. Gollum is about twice Bilbo's size, but is supposed to have been descended from Hobbits. Instead, they decided to go with the old "frog-guy" look. I did love his voice, though. And Smaug's self-praising speech is delivered with terrifying power.

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 04 07:29 PM EST

I think that if you continue to re-read Tolkien, you will find more and more glimpses of the strength of females in his works, even if it is understated or in the background. Can think of acouple more in the Lotr, but don't want to give out spoilers. And a lot in the Silmarillion, even if they don't get much story-time.

As far as a reading of the Silmarillion, I've read it 50= times, but i'm willing to join in for the group reading of it. I think it would be a lot of fun, sharing ideas, concepts...

Anyway, good luck with the reading; this has proved tio be an immensely interesting site.

Posted by Elwen @ 2001 Jun 04 07:40 PM EST

I agree, Nathan, about the whole 'frog-guy' thing. RB Hobbit was the first exposure I had to Tolkien and for years, until I read LOTR, I thought Gollum was a goblin or talking-fish or something. Imagine my shock to hear Gandalf speak of him being a kind of proto-hobbit! I still liked his voice though as well as Smaug's, who's voice was very very menacing and yet so cool to an eight year-old at the time. :) It still makes me smile when I hear Smaug laughing quietly at Biblo's mention of revenge.

Anyone remember this line? "You have nice manners for a thief...and a liar." :)

As for Bakshi's attempt. Well...considering there was nothing else out there, it kind of grew on me over the years. Yes, the rotoscoping wasn't too good, but I could see that Bakshi was trying to bring more realistic movement to the characters in a time when motion-capture didn't even exist.

Posted by McDowalj @ 2001 Jun 04 07:47 PM EST

The Silmarillion discussion idea sounds very interesting to me as well.

Posted by mcdowalj @ 2001 Jun 04 07:49 PM EST

Well, I just asked my eight year old (Kyra Rose) who was her favorite character from LOTR. She said,

"I like Sam. He's loyal. Frodo's too serious. Actually, so were Gandalf and Strider. The other hobbits are funny. Gimli and Legolas are always so worried about eadh other.

"Faramir is like a psychologist when he tries to trick you into telling how you're feeling."

She's not yet through the 'Window on the West' chapter. Kyra continues,

"I'd be nervous about Theoden because anything I'd say he might make into a law. Eomer shows that if you try to do something against the law you get into trouble.

"Aragorn loves the daughter of Elrond."

Kyra gets confused between Arwen and Eowyn. She continues:

"Saruman would turn his back on you at any time, like he did on Gandalf.

"Treebeard is always very determined. He never changes his mind.

"I wouldn't want someone as important as Galadriel as a friend because I'd feel always jealous of her. She's very nice, but she does worry about someone invading her land.

"I hate Sauron. He's always so cold and nasty to everyone. I've never seen him but he seems that way.

"The Sackville-Bagginses are not very nice when they inherit things.

"I would like Tom Bombadil as a friend, because he's very nice: even if you're a stranger, he'll give you a room in his house if you need it.

"I like most of the characters, but as Merry said, 'Sam would jump down a dragon's throat for a friend, if he didn't trip over his shoelace first.'"

David

Posted by David @ 2001 Jun 04 08:59 PM EST

Count me in for The Silmarillion book chat, too. I haven't read the book in over 20 years and it would be fun to do it in a group with other people.

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 04 09:10 PM EST

All this talk about the Silmarillion (which is next on my reading list -- sorry Debbie, I wanted to pace with you, but I'm incable of reading Return of the King in more than one day....god knows I've tried...) reminds me of another favourite filksong, by our dear friends across the pond, Tim and Annie Walker. I'll just link to it without further comment:

http://www.weyrd.org/silmarillion.html

Posted by Rob Wynne @ 2001 Jun 04 09:17 PM EST

Okay, I've been following this thing from the beginning but I just have to put my oar in too. In the last little while I've been griping a bit about the fact that I was seven when my parents first read LOTR to me, and that I couldn't remember my initial reactions. Then I found this page, and I no longer had to. Also, about the Rankin-Bass version of The Hobbit, I seem to recall that the goblins were purple and pink (polka-dotted, if my memory serves me right) and that they left out Beorn. I was so appalled I never watched the rest of it. Oh yeah, and add me to the I'm-in-love-with-Aragorn list.

Posted by Tari @ 2001 Jun 04 09:59 PM EST

To David...

I had to laugh out loud when I read your daughter's comments. I had previously felt my own kids (ages 6,8.9) were too young for LotR, but you've inspired me to start them off with The Hobbit. It'll make a nice read-aloud for the summer. Then I'll move on to LotR for my 8 and 9 year olds. Thanks!

Posted by Sirelle @ 2001 Jun 04 10:02 PM EST

To Debbie and all,

There is a book called "Journeys with Frodo" that maps out and traces Frodo's route chapter by chapter. I enjoyed using it during my umpteenth reading of LotR (last winter). It was interesting to see how "accurate" (at least to that author) my mind's eye view of middle earth could be.
It's probably out of print, but you may be able to find it at your local library, as I did. :)

Posted by Sirelle @ 2001 Jun 04 10:24 PM EST

Thank you Sirelle,
Kyra really wanted to know what other people felt about her thoughts. She's a good reader (she's read all the Harry Potters), but LOTR is beyond her to read by herself.

On the other hand, my wife has never read LOTR and is a little jealous of the time I spend reading it to our kids (she's reading Nancy Drew to Kyra in competition).

I'm reading The Hobbit to my youngest, Brandon (age 6). He likes it, though he's afraid of LOTR--he thinks the trailers will presage a movie too scary for him. OTOH he's envious enough of his older sister that he wants to have it read to him so he will be allowed to see the movie (I won't let him see it unless he's ready).

The Hobbit is a good story to read to children. I found that I had to shorten the first chapter to get them through to the later ones, and to skim through some sections when the modern sensibility of quick video cuts crosses with Tolkien's wonderful descriptions of place and time. I've made up additional asides and questions to keep the children's attention-- you'll have to find your own way.

I remember creating a story for Kyra at 4 years old where Barrow-wights appeared. She was so frightened, she told me she didn't want a story with barrow-wights at all for many years. When she heard the chapter if FOTR, they weren't as scary as she remembered...

I'm glad I didn't add a story about the Balrog to her fairy tale reportoire.

On a linguistic note, Kyra's Hebrew name is 'Kyrah Verdah' where Verdah (pronounced like Varda) is one of the Hebrew words meaning 'Rose' (it's the female ending of the word 'vered'). When she found out that Varda=Elbereth, she was totally thrilled.

David

Posted by David @ 2001 Jun 04 10:28 PM EST

I should correct the Hebrew name:

Kiryah Verdah:

AKA: Koph, Rosh, Yodh, Hay;
Vav, Rosh, Daleth, Hay.

Posted by David @ 2001 Jun 04 10:30 PM EST

Sirelle, I think I have the Italian version of that book: "I Viaggi Di Frodo" by Barbara Strachey (Le Mappe de Il Signore Degli Anelli). I got it during a 3 month stay near Florence and I was starved for Tolkien material. Couldn't read the books too well, but the maps were nice. :)

I also got the graphic novel "Lo Hobbit a fumetti" or something like that. It's kinda cool seeing Bilbo greet Gandalf with "Buon Giorno!" and Gandalf snapping back "Che vuoi dire?! (What do you mean?)" :-D

Posted by mcdowalj @ 2001 Jun 04 10:48 PM EST

"The Sackville-Bagginses are not very nice when they inherit things."

LOL. David, your daughter's insights are very sweet and to-the-point. I enjoyed reading them.

Posted by mcdowalj @ 2001 Jun 04 10:53 PM EST

My main problem with the RB Hobbit is the omission of the Arkenstone, and Bilbo's giving it to the "enemy," which is the moral climax of the book, and a major foreshadowing of the main theme of LOTR.

I have no problem understanding Merry's devotion to Theoden: a strong, regal, yet kindly and courteous king suddenly appears in your life? Who wouldn't offer him their service?

Posted by Paul Mendenhall @ 2001 Jun 04 11:02 PM EST

Thank you McDowalj.

Kyra wanted to know what people felt about her comments. She was a little embarassed about some of them and corrected my transcription in some places.

I remember picking up a copy of the Two Towers when I was starting to read LOTR (at 14), and finding that I couldn't believe that the Ring, this 'trifle' as the messenger from Mordor named it to Dain, could be the cause of such evil. I was enlightened in reading Chap. 2 of FOTR and never read the Hobbit the same way since.

I must confess that I do not remember my reaction to Eowyn's attraction to Aragorn when I first read it. I was so caught up in the story that I didn't have time to think until the whole situation sorted itself out later on in the story.

I do know that I was immediately in awe of Galadriel, and loved Eowyn--from a male point of view, there are limited love interests, and for most of us it is futile to compare ourselves against the likes of Aragorn....

Posted by David @ 2001 Jun 04 11:11 PM EST

I've just dusted off the Sil (I wonder how many of us have that same first edition?) so count me in for a re-read.
On the subject of the female roles, we here see the creative strength and immense originality of these women, but there is a body of literary criticism that thinks otherwise, alas, and it can challenge some readers. I found splendid insight in Kara Gardner's analysis from last month's Green Books. Spoilers be there (even in the article's title), so don't go there if you've not finished! http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/050101_02.html

Posted by Tish @ 2001 Jun 04 11:25 PM EST

How 'bout Shelob as a strong female character? (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

Posted by Roland @ 2001 Jun 04 11:48 PM EST

LOL. Wow, Roland, you know, I never really thought of Shelob that way before...at least not conciously. :)

Posted by mcdowalj @ 2001 Jun 05 12:40 AM EST

Deb,
Was just informed of your sight, did not find it on the one net like so many others but was informed of the existance of this sight from a game i play, and just had to read it all. I know the name i choose sounds funny but is is the name i chose to use on my game so i am using it here. This sight is awesome, it has been at least 20 years since i read the hobbit and LOTR for the first time and i have always loved them, i find your insights wonderful and can not wait to find out how you react to the remaining chapters.
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

For you interested in gaming, try the game i mentioned at
http://www.angband.com/towers
its based on tolkiens works and is IMHO the best MUD out there.

Hevron

Posted by Hevron Pathor @ 2001 Jun 05 01:39 AM EST

Found this site through TORN where I've been getting my daily fixes of LOTR. It's great to watch Deb's transformation from 'I really don't think I'm going to like this, but here goes' to 'WOW, got to keep reading'.

I've read LOTR sooo many times that I've lost count. Bought an illustrated copy a couple of years ago to add to the other two copies I own. Then of course I had to buy an illustrated copy of The Hobbit to go along with it.

I was a little offended by some opinions being voiced over at TORN that most women don't get into LOTR, so I'm pleased to see all the avid female fans posting here.

BTW, I'm in Adelaide, Australia.

Posted by Serina T @ 2001 Jun 05 02:05 AM EST

David,

You write it is futile to compare yourself with Aragorn, but can you imagine us, women or girls, comparing ourselves with women like Éowyn? It would be very futile from us, yes, it’s quite funny when I imagine myself being Éowyn :o)
I can compare myself with Boromir a little - he was murmuring against something often and it is just like me :o))))))))))
By the way I liked Boromir a lot. It’s a pity that he died. He was very human despite all his weaknesses (I don’t know if “human” is the correct word but hope you know what I mean). I love that part where Faramir tells the hobbits about Boromir, about their childhood . They must have had a great relationship as brothers though Denethor made differences between them. Yes, Boromir is a great character.
But sorry :o), it’s past, now we have book V already!

Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 05 03:59 AM EST

I've just read the "Men are from Gondor, Women are from Lothlorien" mentioned above (http://greenbooks.theonering.net/anwyn/files/111099.html)
I really recommend Debbie to read it when she's ready with the book (SPOILERS!) I agree with that article fully.

Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 05 05:24 AM EST

I want to give up some more props to Boromir, since Katerina mentioned what appeals to her about him. Like she said, the flaws many people hate him for tend to be the reason I can understand him. He gives into impulses we've all felt (jealousy, hubris, impulsiveness) while also being this mythic hero in the traditional mold. I'm always moved by his final moments, as the tragedy and heroism seem very 'real' to me.

I don't dislike Aragorn or think him quite as dull as many people find, but Boromir's story always gets me. I'm a sucker for pathos.

On a movie related note - Definitely looking forward to seeing how Sean Bean handles the role in the film and to witnessing the drama of his redemptive last stand. I remember spy reports saying those scenes are really something...

Posted by Spatulalad @ 2001 Jun 05 05:37 AM EST

Oh yes! I'm looking forward to see Sean Bean as Boromir since he is my favorite actor! He's got the right face for a character you're not sure what you should await of :o) (in my opinion Bean and Wood are the best chosen actors for LotR, though I don't like Boromir being blond...and Faramir as well :o()

Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 05 06:33 AM EST

Oh yes! I'm looking forward to see Sean Bean as Boromir since he is my favorite actor! He's got the right face for a character you're not sure what you should await of :o) (in my opinion Bean and Wood are the best chosen actors for LotR, though I don't like Boromir being blond...and Faramir as well :o()
And yes, I love that final scene with Aragorn speaking to dying Boromir, sigh! :o)

Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 05 06:34 AM EST

Ah, double post again :o(((( sorry.

Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 05 06:37 AM EST

Hey Serina T
Good to hear from another Aussie!

You were a " little offended by some opinions being voiced over at TORN that most women don't get into LOTR..." I wouldn't worry I know as many female as male fans.

What to you think about the match up between David Wendham (Faramir) and Sean Bean (Boromir)? Given that Aussies have seen so much more of Wendham then most of the world. Personally I think it is a piece of brillant casting by PJ.

And guys. An on-line, synchronised reading of Silmarillion would be great.

TTFN
Rallas (Melbourne Australia)
BTW, I'm in Adelaide, Australia.

Posted by Serina T @ 2001

Posted by Rallas @ 2001 Jun 05 08:44 AM EST

I'll try to get on board the Silmarillion reading/discussion, although goodness knows I have way too many other commitments. But one thing that strikes me: If Debbie's going to be reading The Hobbit and/or The Silmarillion in the future, we should probably avoid posting spoilers for them as well if we want to have the pleasure of following a read-through like this one. For example -- Paul M., your most recent comment is a MAJOR spoiler for The Hobbit.

Posted by Randy Hoffman @ 2001 Jun 05 09:41 AM EST

Rallas,

So you know David Wendham well? And you think it was a good choice for Faramir? I'm quite glad to hear that. I don't know Wendham at all, I've only seen some photos from LotR casting and I was not very excited. Wendham is very sympathetic but he doesn't seem to me serious and sad enough - and Faramir is described like that in the books. But I DO NOT WANT TO DEPRECATE HIM BEFORE SEEING HIM ACTING!

Posted by Katerina @ 2001 Jun 05 10:08 AM EST

But have you SEEN how much he looks like Sean Bean ? It's SCARY !!!

Posted by Fiona @ 2001 Jun 05 10:53 AM EST

David,

please tell your daughter Kyra she should not be embarassed of her comments! They are great and show a lot of insight in the characters. Tell her I like Sam the best to. :)) I particularly liked her comment: "Faramir is like a psychologist when he tries to trick you into telling how you're feeling." She's absolutely right! I studied some psychology and know many psychologists and therapists, and she's right on the spot with that remark.

Tell her also that I know what she means about Galadriel. I would be jealous of Galadriel too, if she was my close friend... I would feel small in comparison with her. But as a distant friend, who gives you advice and useful gifts, I think Galadriel is wonderful.

Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 05 11:58 AM EST

Katerina,
I understand your point about Eowyn--she is certainly someone to look up to. Also, I have found over the years a growing sympathy with Boromir. When I first read the story I thought, "Wicked, wicked Boromir. Didn't he listen to Elrond?"

Now though, I can see beyond his faults to his inner nobility that redeemed him in the end. Consider how much Faramir loved him even though he was likely to have been a tough older brother.

Posted by David @ 2001 Jun 05 08:11 PM EST

Rallas,

I completely agree, David Wendham is a great choice to play Faramir. I think he's a very versatile actor and will give this character a lot of heart, which will be needed.

All of PJ's casting is brilliant, with the exception maybe of Hugo Weaving (Elrond) but I'll leave my final judgement on that until I see the movie.

Serina T

Posted by Serina T @ 2001 Jun 05 08:33 PM EST

Katarina,
Kyra enjoyed your response. She is fascinated by the fact that there are people from all over the world writing notes here--her dearest wish is to travel to all the countries of the world.

Posted by David @ 2001 Jun 05 09:17 PM EST

Thank you David and Kyra!
Maybe Kyra has some more comments on LotR she would like to share? I for one would enjoy that.

Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 09 07:23 AM EST

To get back to an earlier thread on this page concerning Saurons appearance in the film. From what I have gathered there will be flashbacks from the Last Alliance and the wars at the end of the second age. At this time Sauron still had the power to take human shape, although he lost his ability to appear fair at the destruction of Numenor. So when Elrond, Gil-Galad and Elendil et al fights him, he does have the shape of a huge warrior, clad in black armour. I believe it is this shape that will be shown in the films.

Posted by Dunhere @ 2001 Jun 09 08:29 PM EST

I think you're right, Dunhere. It also makes it more clear why Sauron directs his strongest attack towards Gondor where the descendants of the Numenorians live. I like to think that he has used the same tricks with the men of Harad. They must believe that Numenorians are evil incarnate to ally themselves with Mordor. Sort of like "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of thing. From the descriptions of what Denethor saw, one would believe that all the lands of the south and east have be deceived by Sauron - who has only been in Mordor for a relative short time almost corresponding to how long the Ring has been out from under the mountains.

Posted by dave @ 2001 Jun 10 08:35 AM EST

David, out of curiosity, how do you pronounce Kyra's name? I have a 14-year-old named Kira (pronounced Kee-ra), who has constantly had to deal with teachers and others pronouncing it with the long "i" sound. My daughter's name was originally supposed to be spelled the same as your daughter's, but she was my first, and I was a bit - shall we say, freaked - at her birth, and messed up the spelling.:-)

Incidentally, I gave Kira "The Hobbit" when she was eight, and "The Lord of the Rings", a few months later. She loved them and is waiting for the movie(s) as much as I am.

Posted by John @ 2001 Jun 10 10:12 AM EST

John,
It wouldn't have helped. Kyra pronounces her name >, and we have always run into people who pronounce it with a long 'I'. Kyra and my wife have always said it was my fault to have spelled it that way.

Posted by David & Kyra @ 2001 Jun 14 09:38 PM EST

NOTE: Arwen made the banner, not Galadriel :)

Posted by Chris @ 2001 Jun 29 09:26 AM EST