The Battle of Pelennor Fields

I've become somewhat nervous about the spoilers popping up in the comments (two people just warned me about a spoiler that was posted in Chapter 5's feedback board), so I'm going to hold off reading more feedback until I've gotten further into The Return of the King.

Waiting For Frodo has been updated. I've also registered "waitingforfrodo.com", but need to move stuff over before making domain active. For now, keep using http://www.electricpenguin.com/comic/frodo/", thanks.

Back to Chapter 6...

Wow, action-packed chapter! Can't wait to see this scene in the second movie: Theoden lying beneath the body of his horse, terrorized by the Lord of the Nazgul, with only Dernhelm and Merry to defend him. And then Dernhelm tearing off her helmet to reveal that (HA! I was right!) she is really Eowyn.

*Loved* this scene:


A little to the left facing them stood she whom he had called Dernhelm. But the helm of her secrecy had fallen from her, and her bright hair, released from its bonds, gleamed with pale gold upon her shoulders. Her eyes grey as the sea were hard and fell, and yet tears were on her cheek. A sword was in her hand, and she raised her shield against the horror of her enemy's eyes.


This sent shivers up my spine. Some really great writing here...can't you just picture this in the second movie? It's agony knowing that we'll have to wait until CHRISTMAS 2002 to see how this scene is portrayed.

And okay, I admit I was really, really wrong about Eowyn being a wimp. (!)

AMAZING fight scene between Eowyn and the Black Rider. And yes, I cheered when Merry finally finds his courage to help Eowyn, after being paralyzed with fear earlier in the chapter. Yay for Merry!

I felt for Eomer when he arrives on the scene just in time to see his father die, and discovers that Eowyn is also dead.

Except we find soon after that she really isn't dead. And I do confess that I wondered why no one bothered checking her for life signs earlier, especially her brother (before he rushed off back into battle) or Merry. Sam made a similar mistake with Frodo, didn't he? Assuming Frodo was dead prematurely.

Hm...makes me wonder if this is what that earlier feedback comment meant, that a character I liked was going to die. Did they mean PERMANENTLY die or just SEEM to die??

Cheered also when Aragorn showed up to help save the day. I hope we get to find out what happened to him since he left amidst such predictions of doom re: Paths of the Dead.

I also hope we get to see lots more of Eowyn. I'd also be interested in seeing some pre-history about Eowyn, after I've finished the book...is there anything written about her in Tolkien's other Middle Earth texts? I'd love to see a scene with both Galadriel and Eowyn. They'd get along pretty well, don't you think?

I'm starting to get antsy about knowing what's going on with Frodo and Sam. Hope we get back to them soon!

[Previous entry: "The Return of the King: BOOK V - Chapter 5"] [Next entry: "The Return of the King: BOOK V - Chapter 7"]

Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 06 06:34 AM EST

Wow. I feel as though I've just been through the battle of the Pelennor again. This is my first comment to your personal saga, but I've been following it with great enjoyment almost since you started.

This is rivetting. Keep reading. Hurry up!

Adding one more Aussie to the list...

Robert Jones.

Posted by Robert Jones @ 2001 Jun 06 06:54 AM EST

Just seen the latest waiting for Frodo and Sam's using an Apple laptop - I KNEW you had good taste Debs! :)

Posted by Andy @ 2001 Jun 06 06:55 AM EST

Yes, this is a beautiful chapter, full of surprises too. Still, after a lot of rereads, I find that this chapter is not a favourite of mine. So alright, alright, they fight, and fight. And heroic deeds are done.

Please don't hate me now! I know many of you, just like Debbie, love this chapter and look forward to seeing it in the movies. But I prefer the more intimate parts of the story, like the interaction between Frodo-Sam-Gollum and Merry-Pippin, like the meeting between Frodo-Faramir and Aragorn's anguish after Gandalfs and Boromirs deaths. And a lot of other scenes that Debbie hasn't read yet. I'm just really a freak for psychology!

So those are the scenes that I'm full of expectation to see in the movies. And a bit anxious too - will they come out as pregnant (is it OK to use that word in this context??) meaningful, emotionally significant as I perceive them in the book?
I can only hope...

And no patience needed for the next chapters, in my opinion. I love them.

Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 06 07:07 AM EST

I was thinking about how much you would enjoy this chapter when I read it yesterday. But the person above was right: it won't be in the second movie but the THIRD! (Darn these people actually trying to do a good job and not squeezing the whole thing into one film)

As a passing note, Eomer is Theoden's nephew, not his son. The son, whose name escapes me, was killed in battle fairly recently (in the book). But Theoden had been as a father to both Eowyn and Eomer, so they were dear to him.

Posted by judith @ 2001 Jun 06 07:17 AM EST

I agree with you about many of the battle chapters, Katarina, and much prefer the intimate moments of LOTR, too, but I don't agree with you about this chapter, if only for the final battle between Eowyn and Merry and the witch-king. That is such a stirring, dramatic scene, such a wonderful life-changing moment for two characters who were under-estimated for the last several chapters to come into their own. Just incredible writing. And I like the irony of the witch-king thinking he's invincible because he can't be defeated by man and then being defeated by a woman and a hobbit.

But when I read The Mighty Celt's comments above my immediately response was, "Am I the only person who enjoys (and sometimes even prefers) the quieter, character-driven chapters that often happen after the scenes of high action in LOTR? (I remember people saying the same thing after Moria, too) The next few chapters are -not- slow, there's many lovely moments in them that I love to re-read." Glad to see I'm not the only person who feels that way :).

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 06 07:25 AM EST

KatArina,

I love this chapter from that psychological point of view cos I love to watch people turning from the deepest depression to the clearest joy. I know there was not a lot of joy in this chapter but I'm speaking of Eomer's feeling he's gonna die soon and suddenly recognising Aragorn's flag :o)
But I also prefere the most intimate parts.
My most favourite scene is in book 6 chapter 1 so I can’t tell anything about it yet, but you know what I mean! BIG wink! ;o)

KatErina.

Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 06 07:39 AM EST

Theoden's son was called Theodred and was killed fighting orcs in battle at the Isen crossing.

Posted by Alan C @ 2001 Jun 06 07:40 AM EST

Allison

No, you're certainly not the only one to like those kinds of scenes! And you are absolutely true in your comment about Eowyn and Merrys performances in this chapter. I give in.. a bit.;)

But you should know that for many years this was a confusing scene to me and other swedish readers, since the translator mixed up the pronouns he and she and it looked as if Merry alone stroke the final blow on Angmar! (That's Ioreth's spoiler remark some chapters ago, remember? Now it's OK to mention, I guess.) It's been corrected nowadays, but not in my older edition. The scene really is much more stirring and dramatic with the right pronouns. :))

And Katerina Str., I know exactly what you mean! ;D Looking forward to that chapter.

KatArina

Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 06 07:48 AM EST

I can't recall exactly how many times I've read LOTR. With the movie coming soon, I've read it twice just within the last 6 months. I can honestly say that regardless of how many times I've read it, none of it is ever slow. Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time - now that is slow.

Looking forward to the next log entry!

Posted by Mary @ 2001 Jun 06 08:03 AM EST

Michael had nothing to read last night. So of his own accord he's started reading LOTR. He'll be 14 on the 29th of this month. He was up far to late, when I asked him this morning how he likes it so far he said "it's kind of boring" I suspect he'll like the stuff I don't, the battles and like stuff. He's much more action oriented than I am. Now where was I going with this.... Oh So i'm going to get to watch two first reads. I suspect that Debbies will be somewhat more insightful than Mikes

Posted by Heather @ 2001 Jun 06 08:23 AM EST

Debbie,

Now can see how Tolkien did foreshadow a couple of things that happened in this chapter. The "flag thingy" you were curious about is what was unfurled on Aragorn's ship: "upon the foremost ship a great standard broke and the wind displayed as she turned toward the Harlond." Like I said before - operatic writing!

Another big instance of foreshadowing - it has been mentioned that the prophecies say that the Witch King could not be killed by any living man - and he plainly believed the prophecies. But they didn't mention WOman or hobbits! Another great line: "suddenly the slow kindled courage of his race awoke!"

Don't worry - you will get the story behind the Paths of the Dead.

Posted by Charly @ 2001 Jun 06 08:36 AM EST

I do not believe that the Witch King ever really came to believe the prophecy. We can't be sure he ever even heard of it. It was uttered by Glorfindel many, many years before. I think some people misunderstand the way prophecy is used in Tolkien. Glorfindel didn't say no man _could_ hurt the Witch King, but that no man _would_ do so. There's a difference. I have always taken the Witch King's statements to more along the lines of some overconfident bragging to intimidate his opponents. But I suppose you're just as welcome to believe that he somehow heard of the prophecy.

Posted by Ufthak @ 2001 Jun 06 08:50 AM EST

Nay! nay! You misunderstand! I don't find ANY of "The Lord of the Rings" slow at all. I just know that others who have read it do, and that my own impatience for getting back to the story of Sam and Frodo make me eager to get through them.

How could I think otherwise when you consider what the very next chapter is all about, eh? And then Book 6 Chapter three is another of my favourites.

Yes -- I enjoy the intimacy (sp?) of the book. My favourite scene is when Gollum/Smeagol gently brushed Frodo's leg near the yawning mouth of Shelob's tunnel. I felt such a deep pain of pity for him then that the feeling of Gollum being my favourite character was embedded in stone. He is so complicated and yet simply motivated... there, see -- I do read more and derive more pleasure from the book than the "action scenes".... although "The Bridge of Khazad Doom" is still my favourite passage from any book EVER!

I am looking forward to the report from the next chapter...

Posted by The Mighty Celt @ 2001 Jun 06 09:11 AM EST

I think this chapter gets closer to the reality of battle than most other fantasy. The ebb and flow of the tide of battle around the events of the chapter, Merry's fearful breakdown at the arrival of the Nazgul, and Eomer's desperate cry of "Death!" when he sees all he loves dead on the field.

While other chapters include wrenching episodes of struggles with inner (and outer) demons, this one provides an insite into an aspect of the human condition that few have the misery to experience.

Posted by David @ 2001 Jun 06 10:00 AM EST

Allison said "I like the irony of the witch-king thinking he's invincible because he can't be defeated by man and then being defeated by a woman and a hobbit."

This is what makes the confrontation between the Witch King and Eowyn and Merry my favorite moment in the book. In fact, I think it's one of my favorite moments in literature. (A close second is in "Watership Down" when Bigwig tell Woundwort "My chief rabbit told me to defend this run.")

Posted by earandur @ 2001 Jun 06 10:10 AM EST

AT LAST, AT LAST!!! Debbie has reached one of my favourite moments!

and to join the action/psychology discussion: allthough i myself am a person tending more towards intense psychological moments [Galadriel refusing the Ring; the scene in the new trailer where Gandalf/Sir Ian asks "is it safe?"; and especially the scene where Gandalf realises that the Ring has started growing on Bilbo], i can't helped being excited by scenes like this. why's that? well, i don't think the two viewpoints (that is- action or psychology) really contradict each other. any battle scene in LOTR always carries great dramatic tension within it, and that is way it is a classic, not just another so-called "fantasy epic". funny that every single one of those is advertised as the best thing after Tolkien- in my reading experience, the only two writers that managed to do fantasy without doing rip-offs of Tolkien are Philip Pullman and Terry Pratchet, and that's beacause they have a completely different style. OK OK, maybe Stephen King too from what i've heard, but i'll be sceptic until i read anything by him ;]

but i digress [duh]. every single battle scene in Tolkien is really emotionally charged drama- operatic as someone has said! and talking of operatic, i can't wait to see this scene with music... hopefully a choir of female altos giving a feminine-yet powerful choral piece as Eowyn rises up and sticks her sword into the Witch-King!

is it obvious that i am in love with Eowyn? heh. honestly, someone said that, we guys couldn't dream of an Arwen 'cause we're not Aragorns. well if you ask me, Eowyn can have Arwen eat her dust any time! [and not only in battle, in character and brains as well].

damn! i'll have to stop here for now in fear of spoilers...

Posted by yiorgos @ 2001 Jun 06 10:12 AM EST

Way to go Deb, you finally reached Eowyn's big moment. It's been hard for every one to keep that hidden from you.

As for the talk of Eowyn Vs Arwen....I guess every one has a favorite but you must understand that they are very different. Arwen is 3/4 (or more) elf. She is hundreds of years old and elves have been doomed to play a small part in the events of the third age. The gift of Illuvatar (God) to elves is eternal life, and to humans is the ability to change their destiny. I just saying....don't think less of Arwen because Eowyn gets to do great things. They are both great in their own right.

I look forward to Deb's comments on the appendix at the end. There is alot of interesting stuff in there.

Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 06 10:41 AM EST

With regard to the community reading of the Silmarillion, there are a number of options. For example...

Yahoo Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com) which offers niceties like chatrooms, file uploads, polls, emailed responses, moderators etc.

Or Advanced Bulletin Board systems such as the forums at Imladris (http://www.imladris.net/forums)

Both would work quite nicely...

Keep up the good work Debbie, enjoying your website immensely.

Posted by OnCider @ 2001 Jun 06 10:58 AM EST

Perhaps Debbie shouldn't read the comments for chapter 6 either. Yiorgos dropped a wopper of a spoiler just now.

Posted by mcdowalj @ 2001 Jun 06 10:58 AM EST

Guys, please, PLEASE try to be careful with those spoilers. Don't say or hint *ANYTHING* that will happen in future chapters. Please recheck your messages before posting. Carelessness with spoilers has really gone extreme with the last few chapters.

Very bad karma, Yorgo. :-) I estimate it'll be about one more century in the halls of Mandos for you... :-)

Posted by Aris Katsaris @ 2001 Jun 06 11:05 AM EST

I love both action and psychological scenes equally and the way JRR has of bringing them to life. But I must say that it is tough to form a clear image of what is going on in the battle scenes, whereas in the interpersonal moments I have fairly distinct images. I think PJ has a million options on how to do the battle scenes but the movie will be made or broken by the portrail of the charachters and how they interact. Which brings me to one of my favorite psychological scenes that was not mentioned earlier. The meeting with Faramir when he stated that this was not the first hafling that he has seen coming out of the north. I just love the reaction of Pippen and Gandalf and then Denethor and the way JRR describes the whole scene finally leading to Denethors tirade against Faramir. This is the kind of scene where the acting is key and if they get these moments right, I'll be a happy man.

Posted by CCS @ 2001 Jun 06 11:59 AM EST

In honor of Debbie's reading, I re-read this chapter last night, then couldn't stop myself and read the next as well.

The language is sometimes dense for me, with all the lo's! and behold's! Still, what I love, what surprises me even on the umpteenth read, is how the intense emotion and character development marries with the action. The attention paid to the battlefield allows us to visualize the important details and without lurid gore. There is just enough physical description of the battle to place the characters so that we have context for the extraordinary things they do, see, and feel.

Posted by Tish @ 2001 Jun 06 12:00 PM EST

Katarina: I can find the battle scenes overwhelming and they'll be mostly lost on me unless there are moments of character and growth for me to identify with. For that reason, the Helm's Deep chapters don't stay with me except for Gimli discovering the glittering caves and his promise to Legolas- see? Character moments :). And this chapter hasn't much stayed with me through the years except for that amazing scene with Eowyn and Merry facing the witch-king and Theoden's farewell to Merry. It's so profound how this chapter shapes Merry's character and there's a strange mix of horror and joy to see Eowyn revealed and fulfilling her true destiny. But the rest of the "To arms!", honour and glory stuff still gets lost on me :). It makes me appreciate again how brilliant Tolkien was at tapping into so many audiences that all of us can find such different things in the story to thrill and move us.

Mighty Celt: Forgive me for over-reacting to your comment that the next few chapters might seem slow :). If I was honest with myself I'd have to admit that the first time I read LOTR I found -all- of Book 5 to be much too slow, despite the stirring story and all the wonderful moments, because I wanted so much to get to the events of Book 6. So, I do clearly see your point :). I've just seen too many letters in this journal where people have warned Deb about moments that are "slow" that I find lyrical and wonderful to get her back to excitement and battle. To each their own, I'm finding :).

Tsk, nasty spoiler, yiorgos. I'll remove that letter when I get home tonight, but with three major spoilers posted over three days now I think Deb is right in her decision to avoid these boards altogether 'til she's done. It's a shame, though, she has to do that.

Big Mike: Yes, I'm coming to realize, too, that we'll have to keep spoiler warnings on this board even after Deb finishes the last chapter. There are many delightful surprises and destinies to discover in the appendices, too, and better for Deb to find them on her own.

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 06 12:12 PM EST

For me, this is the greatest chapter in the book. The writing achieves a grandeur of style that is incomparable. And all the psychological development that has been so carefully prepared pays off in action scenes that fully reveal the characters in a way that only mortal danger and extreme risk-taking can. This is writing on the level of the great epic poems of the past, and it is no accident that Tolkien so often uses verse in it. Some of my favorite bits:

" a sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises..."

"Mourn not overmuch! Mighty was the fallen, meet was his ending. When his mound is raised, women then shall weep. War now calls us!"

"Faithful servant, yet Master's bane. Lightfoot's foal, swift Snowmane."

How like Tolkien that is, to take the time to memorialize even a horse!

"Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day's rising, I came, singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode, and to heart's breaking; Now for wrath, now for ruin, and a red nightfall!"

"and the mirth of the Rohirrim was a torrent of laughter and a flashing of swords, and the joy and wonder of the City was a music of trumpets and a ringing of bells."

And of course the chapter ends with another poem, the magnificent "We heard of the horns in the hills ringing..." etc.

In this chapter more than any other we see the professor's love of the poetry of the Germanic and Norse peoples. I think it was mostly to have the opportunity to create this kind of writing that LOTR was written at all, and wow, does he ever deliver!

And on a more personal note, since I identify with Merry more than any other character, his heroism in helping to defeat the Nazgul is deeply gratifying to me!

Posted by Paul Mendenhall @ 2001 Jun 06 12:20 PM EST

And in the catagory of "Every time you point a finger at someone you point three back at yourself", I now recall that I helped Deb skim over some particularly wonderful and lyrical moments myself, namely the Prologue and "The Council of Elrond". Heh :). But she really was struggling at those points (Allison justifies to herself) and she will go back and appreciate them one day...

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 06 12:30 PM EST

Here's an idea whose time has finally come, and I feel confident that you'll all back me up:

DECOY SPOILERS. Hear me out on this.

We say things like "Debbie, just WAIT until Aragorn jumps into his Humvee and cuts the orcs to ribbons with a machine gun!", or, "OOH, Debbie, wait til you get to the part when Morgoth comes back and says that all of the votes from Florida in the Dark Lord election were invalid and accuses Sauron of stealing the election!". That way, she'll be so desensitized to the spoilers that they won't even register, and poor Allison can go back to e-mails that say only "hey, howzit goin'?".

Mock me if you must, but never speak ill of the program! The program works! The program is sound!

Posted by Chris H. @ 2001 Jun 06 12:32 PM EST

Debbie, I'm sure you're tired of hearing it now, but this is a wonderful, simply wonderful page! I love your commentaries :).

Yiorgos, that WAS a SPOILER!!!!!

By the way, I think that comparing Eowyn to Arwen is simply unfair. Unfortunately I cannot say anything about it at this point without the use of spoilers, but I'll be glad to discuss it again later :).

Ruby

Posted by Ruby @ 2001 Jun 06 12:41 PM EST

I love the scene with Eowyn and the Witch King as well, but I'm suprised that no one has commented on Theoden's last charge. That's one of my favorite things in this chapter. I envision him as an old, grandfatherly sort, that rises above and beyond what you would expect of someone in that stage of life. It's interesting that Theoden doesn't seem to have become one of Debbie's favorites--she mentioned that she wondered why Merry pledged his service to him. I have to admit, this is sort of out of the blue, but I never wondered about it too much. I guess I tend not to judge Tolkien by modern ways of thinking--it seems more like an Icelandic saga (what were those things called again?) where actions mean more than whats on the surface--they are symbolic. This is true of much of what happens in LOTR to me, and its seems that often the symbolism is more important that the actual act.

Anyway, getting back to Theoden--I've always loved his character. I've been re-reading LOTR again as well, and can see why Debbie would be suprised as to why Merry loves him. Tolkien doesn't so much give us reasons to love Theoden is his descriptions of Theoden himself (although he does in some of his actions, like his gentle speech towards, and the respect that he shows, the hobbits), but rather shows us the love that Theoden engenders by the reactions of the other characters to him, particularly in the reactions of the Rohirrim when Theoden first comes out of Meduseld after Gandalf has "healed" him (although, I always thought that the term "healing" didn't really do justice to the subleties of what Tolkien describes).

Also, one of the reasons I'm suprised that no one has commented on this part of the chapter is not only does Theoden's last ride move me as much as Eowyn's encounter with the Witch King, but I believe that it is Theoden who was being refered to as (to quote Debbie above) "a character [that] I liked [who] was going to die" (at least, this is what I though when I saw the initial comment posted several chapters back). This also, I think anyway, is the answer as to why Theoden told Merry that he would be in his service "for a little while". I think Theoden knew that the coming battle would be his last--after all, the chances of survival weren't good for someone in their prime, so you have to figure they would be even less for someone in their waning years.

Posted by Andy @ 2001 Jun 06 12:45 PM EST

Nassssty sspoilerss!! We hatess them forever, yesss my preciouss...

Posted by Angry Gollum @ 2001 Jun 06 12:45 PM EST

Too funny Chris H. and Angry Gollum!

I think this is my second favorite chapter in the book. The first would be book VI, chapter 5. Wow. That is all I can say about this chapter. It just blows me away with its emotion and power. I'm starting to get misty-eyed just thinking about it.

I don't know if any of you did this, but 2-3 days ago TORn had a link posted for a website that gave you a hobbit name. Here it is: http://www.chriswetherell.com/hobbit/default.asp

It may take awhile to download, I had troubles getting in, but it's worth the wait. Have fun!

–Lila Broadbelt of Buckland

Posted by Talierin @ 2001 Jun 06 01:32 PM EST

Good Point Andy,

When I first read the comment about a character who was going to die, I though for sure it was Theoden. Deb was so conserned with that comment that she worried about everyone. I guess it was kind of a spoiler but I think it made Deb feel for the characters more that she would have.

Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 06 01:36 PM EST

From the official movie site - Miranda Otto as Eowyn:

http://www.lordoftherings.net/images/ca_motto.jpg

Posted by Charly @ 2001 Jun 06 01:38 PM EST

Big Mike: I agree that was a terrible spoiler- wish I'd had editing control in those days! It's affected Deb's vision of the story ever since Helm's Deep. I'm sure she would have grown just as attached to the characters without having to fear for their lives every chapter.

Reminds me of reading the fourth Harry Potter book last summer after all the publicity Rowling gave out that a major character was going to die. Why did she need to do that? I couldn't think of anything else the entire first time through that book. I would have rather come across such moments naturally.

And, Chris H., as funny as I found your post :), I really like the literary level of the discussion here and I fear decoy spoilers would take it in strange directions...

And I notice we're already starting to talk as if Debbie won't be reading these comments until the end of the book... We should beware of spoilers, anyway.

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 06 02:08 PM EST

That site that figures out your hobbit name is a hoot! Mine is Dimple Loamsdown :D

Posted by Jan @ 2001 Jun 06 02:12 PM EST

Just wanted to point something out (don't know if anyone mentioned thus, as I didn't have time to read all the comments thoroughly). Earlier, I'm pretty sure on this site, someone alluded to JRR's inspiration for the Ents being the prophecy in "Macbeth" that no harm would come to him, until "Birnham Wood come to Dunsinane." Tolkien, being diappointed that this eventually merely ended up being soldiers marching camouflaged with the wood from the forest, created the Ents to fulfill his desire to see live, walking trees. Well, speaking of prophecies from "Macbeth," does anything strike anyone about the fate of the Witch-king prophecy? In "Macbeth," another of the witches' prophecies is that no one of woman born could kill Macbeth (or something like that). Unfortunately for him, his eventual assasin (name escapes me right now) was born by the medieval version of a caesarian ("was from his mother's womb untimely ripped"); therefore, by a certain stretch of the imagination, he wasn't exactly "born" per se. The fate of the Witch-king has always struck me as being a little too close for comfort, especialy since learning that "Macbeth" was a source of influence for Tolkien. Don't get me wrong - I still like the scene.

Also wanted to mention, I'm not sure exactly where this happens, as it's been some time since I read the novel, but the scene where the Witch-king enters the gate of Mias Tirith and is confronted by Gandalf is perhaps, for me, the most tense moment in the work, and then when the horns of Rohan are heard in the distance, and Gandalf identifies them, and the section ends is the most purely ecstatic moment for me in the whole work. I'm surprised no one commented on it yet (unless they have, and I'm just a big doofus)!

Also, gotta say, love the Woses! (sorry didn't post about this earlier). They're extremely fascinating and well-drawn (imho), and add a lovely jungle flavor to the atmosphere. It's also nice to see swarthy people who are actually noble. I picture my namesake as having a bone or other jewelry through his nose (or maybe Tolkien described him that way - it's been a while!).

Finally, sorry for being so verbose, but I wanted to say Ahoj, Katerino! I'm and Indian-American, but I studied at the Prague Film Academy (FAMU) for a while, so I get very excited whenever I encounter Czech people, ale moje cestina neni dobra!

Posted by Ghan-buri-ghan @ 2001 Jun 06 02:17 PM EST

I tried that site out the other day. Orangeblossom Foxburr here. With my red hair, the name struck me as amusingly appropriate.

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 06 02:17 PM EST

Hey everybody, I've got a question: do you think Eowyn's heroism and strong character will be overshadowed by Arwen's expanded roll in the movie?

Posted by E. Gamgee @ 2001 Jun 06 02:17 PM EST

Love the hobbit-name site!
-- Ruby Foxburr of Loamsdown

Posted by E. Gamgee @ 2001 Jun 06 02:27 PM EST

E. Gamgee,
I don't really think that Eowyn's character could be overshadowed by Arwen's expanded roll. Unless they have Arwen killing the Witch King, or something stupid like that(which I can't see Peter Jackson doing)I would bet that Eowyn's role will remain intact.

Posted by Juleen @ 2001 Jun 06 02:37 PM EST

Oh, I got my hobbit name-Myrtle Sandybanks. Cute.

Posted by Juleen @ 2001 Jun 06 02:38 PM EST

Uh, that's obviously MiNas Tirith!

Posted by Ghan-buri-ghan @ 2001 Jun 06 02:41 PM EST

Ghan...

It was MacDuff who was "untimely ripped" and killed Macbeth.

Posted by Charly @ 2001 Jun 06 02:46 PM EST

Does anyone know if Arwen is going to be in the second movie? Jackson is going to have to play hard and fast with the story if she is considering Arwen isn't in "The Two Towers", unless he resorts to flashbacks or something. If answering this question is too much of a spoiler, we'll just let it go.

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 06 03:34 PM EST

I'm not sure anyone really knows. All we know is that she replaces Glorfindel at the Ford (but not at the council, apparently) and that PJ is borrowing elements from the appendix (what these are, I have no idea). At first everyone thought she was leading the elves' charge at Helms Deep, and yet Ian McKellan is assuring everyone that her role is still the same in the books. All very confusing. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Posted by mcdowalj @ 2001 Jun 06 03:38 PM EST

Juleen,

I certainly hope that Eowyn is not overshadowed because of Arwen's expanded role in the film version. I would think that there would be as much room for multiple strong female characters as there is for the many very strong male characters that LOTR offers. The film indisstry's track record on this is rather poor, but I am hopeful that Peter Jackson will manage it.

Posted by Jeff Bohnhoff @ 2001 Jun 06 03:43 PM EST

I meant "industry" in the previous post. If I could type, I'd be dangerous...:-)

Posted by Jeff Bohnhoff @ 2001 Jun 06 03:45 PM EST

I assume they're beefing up Arwen's role in the first movie to add more female presense to the movie and draw women into the theatre who might not normally go to this kind of movie. With this in mind I'm sure they'll use Eowyn in her turn as much as possible, it would be counter-productive to do anything else. It wouldn't make sense for them to allow Arwen to outshine Eowyn when both characters could be used in such dramatic and contrasting ways.

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 06 03:50 PM EST

Ghan-buri-ghan:

I recall reading somewhere (possibly in the Letters) that Tolkien was very upset about the MacDuff not "really" being born of woman bit from the play Macbeth. I believe he called it a "lawyer's loophole" or some such thing. I think that he consciously tried to outdo Shakespeare insofar as fullfilling the prophecies from Macbeth in a much more literal way than they actually were in the play. I don't think Tolkien thought much of Shakespeare.

Posted by Don @ 2001 Jun 06 03:57 PM EST

I don't think Tolkien could've had a job at Oxford if he didn't -love- Shakespeare. Isn't that a pre-req there or something? ;-)>

I'm pretty sure that those caveats of his with Macbeth were a) from when he was young and b) because of the overtly mystical overtones Macbeth and the utterly mundane resolutions to the conflicts

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 06 04:08 PM EST

In my opinion what PJ has already done to Arwen's character (that we know of) will overshadow Eowyn.
Look, it might not be a shock for us that a woman rode to battle. In the world of Middle Earth it WAS a shock! Eowyn is the only woman who has guts to do it. I am not saying that the other females in the story are less worty because they didn't grab swords and went to fight the orcs in the field. No. However, lets face it, Eowyn was the only one to break conventions and become a worrior. That was by no means expected of a woman. It's been a long while since I read Sil, so I don't remember if perhaps there was a woman who did something similar there. If there was, I'm sure there wasn't more that one. That makes Eowyn pretty unique, even apart from the fact what kind of an enemy she slayed. But of course PJ had to ruin it by giving Arwen a sword!

Now Eowyn is NOT a unique character. She's not the ONLY GIRL who choses to defend her country and principles in this way. Now she's not even the first one to do so! Because of course we see Arwen first. And Arwen is holding a sword.

It was highly unusual for a woman in Tolkien world to do something so unconventional. It's not anymore, apparently, since pretty much half of the females we get to know in the story weild swords.

In my opinion THAT does take away from Eowyn's character, and big time too. She was the only one. Now she's the second one. And since she's one of my favourite characters it upsets me quite a bit.

Ruby

Posted by Ruby @ 2001 Jun 06 04:28 PM EST

to Ghan-buri-ghan:
I've mentioned the last 2 paragraphs from chapter 4 -
The Siege of Gondor as a comment to that chapter. I jus put it here again, for you: "Gandalf did not move. And in that very moment, away behind in some
courtyard of the City, a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking
nothing of wizardry or war, welcoming only the morning that in the sky far
above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn.
And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns,
horns, horns. In dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of
the North wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last."

I LOVE THAT!!!!!!

To all, concerning Arwen:
I'm afraid she appears in all 3 films (information from somewher on TheOneRing.Net) There are some photos that should be from Helm's Deep, she is riding a horse and some orcs are around or what... I don't know what are they going to do with this character. I hope she won't fight, I forgive them anything but that! Maybe she brings the flag to Aragorn personally, who knows :o((((( But I can't imagine what will they do with her next. Maybe she returns to Rivendell or she get's to Lothlorien....

OK, something else: I was wondering if the actors would have some impact on my visual imagination of the character when reading the books. Now I can say that I'm definitely NOT afraid of that. When I read it I still imagine it on my own way and I don't even think of Frodo as Wood or Gandalf as McKellen. I just forget the film at all. I'm very happy to realise it!

Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 06 04:42 PM EST

From the site "About the Songs and Poems in the Lord of the Rings" - ( http://www.cep.unt.edu/songs/tolkien.html )

11. The Ent's Marching Song - (Music)

This is the song that the Ents sing in "Treebeard" as they march to Isengard to war with Saruman. This march is similar to the march of a forest on a castle in "Macbeth," the only play of Shakespeare that Tolkien liked. The battle of Eowyn and Merry against the King of the Nazgul in "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields" is a second Macbethian similiarity. In "Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion" in Appendix A, Glorfindel declared, "Far off yet is his doom, and by the hand of man will he fall." Macbeth, who could not be killed by a man born of woman, was killed by a man born by Caesarean section. The Nazgul died likewise at the hands of a woman or a Hobbit, depending on how one looks at the matter.

Posted by Don @ 2001 Jun 06 04:56 PM EST

Ruby/Katerina: I agree that a warrior-Arwen could detract from Eowyn, but I wouldn't be too worried. The latest rumours are that PJ has really scaled back on the physicality of Arwen's role. We know that she will ride with Frodo across the ford (fleeing the Nazgul) in FOTR, but doesn't replace Glorfindel, wield a sword, or kill anything. Although scenes with Arwen were shot at Helm's Deep, they have supposedly been edited out.

Has anyone here seen much of Miranda Otto? I've now seen five of her films and I'm impressed. She's a really wonderful actress. Also Brad Douriff (who plays Grima) singled her out for praise in an interview awhile back, saying "Now, I was very impressed with Miranda Otto. She was great. She is going to be so good in these movies. She is a cannon. Look out. That girl would definitely go to battle!"

Let's hope this is all good news for the the wonderful Eowyn and Merry vs. the Witchking scene that we're all waiting for . . .

Posted by Winfola @ 2001 Jun 06 04:57 PM EST

Winfola, I hope you are right with all my heart :). It's just that those picture of her with a sword in her hand kinda bother me. Would they release them if those scenes were to be cut out?

Oh, one more thing. What exactly does Lo! mean??

Posted by Ruby @ 2001 Jun 06 05:14 PM EST

Ruby,

"Lo!" Means "Look!" or "Behold!" or "See!"

As for Arwen, in the picture where she's holding the sword, you also see Frodo (or the stunt dummy of Frodo) in front of her. In the film as she's racing away to the Ford, she probably uses her sword to deflect the blows of the Black Riders.

Posted by mcdowalj @ 2001 Jun 06 05:23 PM EST

Regarding Arwen's expanded movie role over-shadowing that of Eowyn; I can't see it happening. I have to admit, on my first read of LotR I had no idea who Arwen was nor why Aragorn seemed to shun Eowyn's affections. It was only on subsequent re-reads that I spotted the character at all!

I think therefore that it is a good idea: expanding her role a little (I can relate to the flight to the ford scene... anything else is needless). This should go towards heightening the tension between Aragorn and Eowyn when they meet (at least we'll understand Aragorn a little more clearly).

And anyway, Eowyn's role is not the only key female figure -- the things Galadriel sets into motion imho has more effect on the final outcome than Eowyn ever has. I can't elaborate more for fear of revealing spoilers.

I honestly can't see anyone over-shadowing Eowyn or diminishing her role unless she is utterly removed from the movie (which we know has not happened yet).

I am now looking forward to our host's thoughts on the next installment...

Posted by The Mighty Celt @ 2001 Jun 06 05:27 PM EST

Ruby: I'm sure there are TONS of pictures all over these web pages that will have nothing to do with the eventual released version of the movies, so I wouldn't worry about any particular shot. As a number of posters from the film industry keep reminding us on other messageboards . . a movie is a work-in-progress right up to release time. So things could change again I guess. But a pretty reliable source who has read the scripts and posts frequently on the TORC messageboard has said "Arwen is not at Helm's Deep" and assured us that she is not a "warrior-princess". Let's hope that's right.

p.s. . .would be nice if I could at least spell my nickname right!

Posted by Windfola @ 2001 Jun 06 05:28 PM EST

Back in the first age, Arwen's great-great-grandmother Luthien defeated Sauron and stole a silmaril from Morgoth's crown.
Tolkien had thought of her before he began LOTR.

Tolkien was not a big fan of warrior virtues. His heroes, such as the hobbits, have a different approach. He doesn't have many warrior-women but he does have many strong women.

Posted by Robert @ 2001 Jun 06 05:46 PM EST

Mcdowalj,
thanks for the translation of Lo! :). As to Arwen, I can see how she could use a sword at the Ford, I was just objecting to the idea of her having one in the first place :).

LOL, Windfola!!! That would be nice indeed ;). That said, I reeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaly hope you are right about Arwen and those pics. Now that I think about it I do believe I remember a scene in the trailer of the Dune that actually didn't appear in the movie itself. Perhaps this is a similar case.

Posted by Ruby @ 2001 Jun 06 05:59 PM EST

Robert, I agree, and this is why I think that PJ should make Arwen strong without making her a worrior while expanding her role.

P.S. I just love the way every time I post something there are always new messages appearing in front by the time I'm done posting mine :). What a popular place this is beginning to be!

Posted by Ruby @ 2001 Jun 06 06:04 PM EST

Popular place indeed, Ruby! I agree that we should see more of Arwen in the movies than in the books-- I didn't catch Arwen first time through LOTR either (good for you, Deb!)-- but Ruby and the rest are right: PJ doesn't have to make Arwen into a warrior princess. I think that would actually take away from her character!

Posted by E. Gamgee @ 2001 Jun 06 06:39 PM EST

What? Didn't anyone else care when Theoden died?

He was always one of my favorite characters in the book, and everytime I read "The Ride of The Rohirrim" and "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields" I just start getting all misty. He always struck me as a truely Noble character... a leader of men, but down to earth and amiable as well.

Theoden's charge, Eowyn & Merry's stand, the death of the Witch King/Lord of the Nazgul and Theoden's last words have got to be my favorite parts of the books.

And as long as folks are quoting great lines, I don't think there is one better than...

"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay the in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."

Now that is a Badass!!!

Posted by Franc @ 2001 Jun 06 07:09 PM EST

Franc: I cared that Theoden died. As Jeff mentioned a day or two back, it was inspiring to see him rise to one last glorious dawn in support of his allies and die proud and ready to face his fathers. And I found even more that I cared that Merry was so affected by Theoden's death and that Theoden is kind and forgiving to Merry for disobeying his orders to the last. It's very touching.

Just so people know, I'm going to try to lure Debbie back over to reading her comment boards. I don't know about you guys but I miss having her getting this feedback and it changes the whole dynamic of the discussion here to think she won't read it for weeks yet.

I'm going to suggest she read her comment boards in the early morning, if she can, say around 7:30, and then not during the day. That means throughout the day I can edit any spoilers I need to (grrr) and even give one last check at 7:00 before I head off to school in the morning.

I don't know if she'll go for that or not, I suggested it yesterday, too, but she did get several letters from people warning her off various chapters and she took the warnings to heart. I think it's worth one more try, though ultimately it's up to Deb what she wants to do. I can't blame her at all for being skittish.

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 06 09:54 PM EST

I'm thrilled to have found this site! I actually found it about a week ago (or whenever TORN posted a link) and I've been keeping up.

The neatest part is that I'm reading LOTR for the first time myself, and I'm only a few chapters ahead (3 left?) -- but this this site might pass me if I don't get back to it soon.

I REALLY do hope you read The Hobbit next, because I've got a copy here and it's next on my list (the The Sim. next... reading backwards :) ). Although it seems as though I already know all the major stuff from The Hobbit just from this book...

Posted by Allen @ 2001 Jun 06 10:09 PM EST

Oh, another thing, about spoilers! I've been avidly reading the LOTR movie fan sites while reading the books and its been like a minefield of spoilers! To make matters worse, I was 'supplementing' my reading with spoiler-rich material like the Atlas of Middle-Earth and that Tolkien dictionary thing. Often, I'd see a the first part of a spoiler and have to shut the book! I've already had a couple of things ruined for me, but luckily several cool things caught me delightfully off guard.

Eowyn, for instance -- I was totally surprised when Dernhelm was Eowyn, I wasn't looking for it (although, clearly you weren't!).

My favorite part was still Shelob -- totally surprised me (although I guess I should have expected it) and I thought it was the most exciting part of the book. I also didn't think Frodo would 'die', as it were. I think the reason Gollum kept disapearing at timers during TTT was to desensitize you so you wouldn't think too much of it in Shelob's lair.

And I've had parts of the later book spoiled for me, and was disappointed about it, so be careful what you read!

BTW, even with the spoiler danger, the Atlas helped TREMENDOUSLY.

Posted by Allen @ 2001 Jun 06 10:17 PM EST

Franc,

Yes, I cared when Theoden died! In fact there are so many parts of ROTK where I must have the tissue box at hand and keep having to stop reading until my eyes stop tearing up and I can see the words again (even after so many reads).

Oh! I remember the blissful days on end reading it for the first-time when I was unemployed and had nothing better to do than stay in bed and lose myself completely in Middle Earth. I don't think anyone got any sense out of me for at least a fortnight.

On this point about Arwen's expanded character in the movies. I can understand why PJ has done this - I too almost missed the sparks between Arwen and Aragorn on the first read and remember being quite surprised when he turned down Eowyn and had to go back and find out why. Arwen seemed a very insignificant character on the first read. For the movies I think the story will work better and attract more (female) ticket-buyers with an expanded Arwen character and love-interest. But, I don't think this will take too much away from Eowyn anymore than Merry and Pippin's emerging maturity in the book detract from Sam or Frodo's importance.

I must read it again! It has been over 2 years since my last read. I did read the Silmarillion years ago, shortly after my first LOTR read, but not having a copy of my own have never re-read that one... I'd better go shopping too.

Serina T.

Posted by Serina T. @ 2001 Jun 06 11:11 PM EST

Greetings from Middle Earth! (aka NZ).
Found your page thru TORn and am loving it. I have to say, I just had to pull my copy of LOTR of the shelf and read it again for about the 30th time. My husband says I'm addicted!

Please Deb, when you have finally finished all the books AND the appendices, will you re-read the prologue and the council of Elrond chapters and let us have your revised views on them. I would like to see if/how they have changed.

Two more things. My Hobbit name was Lobelia Bulge of Hobbiton which I thought hilarious considering that I am built like a Hobbit who really enjoys his food, and please what does IMHO mean.

Posted by Silmarien @ 2001 Jun 06 11:41 PM EST

*coughcough* i guess now that the wrath of the people has subsided i can reappear :].

to be honest, i didn't realise that there was a spoiler in there at the moment you said so... after careful scrutiny though i =think= i see the connection. potential spoiler, given unintentionally, but again it's there isn't it? after all, the road to Morgoth's exile outside the realm of Arda [the closest thing there is to a Middle-Earth hell anyway]is paved with good intentions!

i repent! i repent! at least Eru Iluvatar is not one of those deities that =smites= the unfaithful on the first chance given!

silmarien: IMHO= In My Honest Opinion [isn't it so?]

franc: great quote that. actually reminded me of something. doesn't "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey!", echo "Come not before the dragon and his wrath" from King Lear? i'm starting to believe that LOTR must have other Shakespeare references as well, am i right?

Posted by yiorgos @ 2001 Jun 07 02:40 AM EST

SILMARIEN,

According to my dictionary IMHO = IN MY HUMBLE OPINION :o)

to all: I've heard that Miranda Otto is an excellent actress. I don't know her but I hope she is because IMHO -:o))))- her part is even more difficult than Cate Blanchett's (Galadriel).

Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 07 02:40 AM EST

no nasssty sspoilers in that we hopes, yess preciousss! *cringes back just in case*

BTW, could someone drop me a brief email about what =exactly= was my spoiler? no verbal abuse or viruses please :]

Posted by yiorgos @ 2001 Jun 07 02:44 AM EST

It's tough for me to say I like this-and-that in LoTR over such-and-such because every time I read it, I find my enjoyment levels change.

But this chapter, this war movie meets Nabucco meets Tolkien, is always one of my favourites. And as long as we are quoting favourite bits, mine is the entire section where:

a) Eowyn kills the Witch King
b) Theoden dies
c) The Riders go on a rampage
d) The tide turns against Gondor and Rohan - and the Black Ships appear
e) The Tree, Stars *and* Crown appear.

Wow! Talk about being jerked this way and that.

Posted by Emre @ 2001 Jun 07 02:45 AM EST

oh, "H" stands for Humble? makes more sense that way.. heh

Posted by yiorgos @ 2001 Jun 07 02:46 AM EST

HUMBLE or HONEST, both is OK :o)))

Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 07 02:52 AM EST

By the way, Silmarien,
NZ was the *BEST* place for filming LotR!!!!!!!
I hope you are proud adequately! ;oD

Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 07 03:08 AM EST

Thanks for the explanation all you good people.

Yes Katerina, I'm absolutely proud of my country. After the 1st time I read LOTR I actually wondered if JRRT had ever been here. (Although I must say that driving N to S down State Highway 1 through Mordor (aka the Desert Rd) is a bit much. You come over the brow of a hill and below you is the Orc camp, (Waiourou Army Base) and there in the disance is Mt Doom (Mt Ruapehu) steaming away. Just like the map.) The Southern Alps ARE the Misty Mountains!
I live about 2 miles from where PJ shot all the Helms Deep and Minas Tirith scenes. You can see some of my photos in the archives of TORN.

Posted by Silmarien @ 2001 Jun 07 03:27 AM EST

Since I was the one to start the psychology-action discussion at the beginning of this page, I want to thank you all who has commented on this issue! : )

It's really interesting to hear how different we perceive some of the events and characters of LoTR! Most of my present friends don't share my deep love for Tolkiens work (many of them think I'm childish in this... ), so my own "humble opionons" hasn't met that many others for some time.

Many comments on The battle of Pelennor Fields are surely worth considering. "Life changing moment", hmmm, "close to the reality of battle" ahaaah?, "emotionally charged drama" alright! "like an Icelandic saga" that's true!, (etc etc). I will read this chapter differently the next time, I think. And in English! I have the feeling (looking at the quotes some have provided here) that these scenes come out better in the original words. (Can't check though, the books haven't arrived from Amazon yet... And it was some years since I read LoTR in original.)

And Allison, I think it would be nice if you can convince Debbie to read the feedback again. I mean, that was the whole point, wasn't it!! And then we go and ruin things with spoilers... I really miss knowing that she reads our daily comments.

By the way, I'm Primula Chubb-Baggins. So I'm related to Frodo and Bilbo I guess? What an honour! :))

And Silmarien, I envy you your country! Must go there some day.

Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 07 03:44 AM EST

What are all these Hobbit names people giving themselves?

Posted by Emre @ 2001 Jun 07 04:31 AM EST

Katarina,
you are really Primula? Me too! (What a surprise...;o]) So people will confuse us anyway... :oD
And you are Chubb-Baggins???? I can't belive that! I am Primula SACKVILLE-BAGGINS :o))))) We are relatives then. Well, I'm not much excited to be Sackville but I *SWAEAR* I like Bilbo and Frodo, please don't hate me :o(

Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 07 04:43 AM EST

Emre, go to
http://www.chriswetherell.com/hobbit/default.asp
and get your own hobbit name :o)

Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 07 05:06 AM EST

Emre,

Someone posted a link recently, to a site where you get you own hobbitname... It's on http://www.chriswetherell.com/hobbit/default.asp

Have fun!

Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 07 05:08 AM EST

Katerina

LOL :)))
Here we go, two Primulas. Now we even post the same things!! :D

Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 07 05:10 AM EST

I've tried the hobbit name webpage several times and although I can get the initial page, nothing happens when I press reveal hobbit name.

Don't suppose any kind person out there could try it for me and let me know?

Thanks

Andy Mee

Posted by Andy @ 2001 Jun 07 05:44 AM EST

The name generator only seems to work on the first and last letter of each of your names which explains why the two Kats are the same.

Posted by OnCider @ 2001 Jun 07 05:48 AM EST

Andy, your hobbit name is "Podo Broadbelt of Buckland"

OnCider ("Drogo Boffin of Whitfurrows")

Posted by OnCider @ 2001 Jun 07 05:50 AM EST

OnCider,

or should that be Drogo Boffin - wow thanks for the amazingly prompt reply - not sure I like the implications in "Broadbelt" though ....

Posted by Andy @ 2001 Jun 07 05:56 AM EST

Andy

I had the same problem. Do you use Netscape? When i tried it again with Internet Explorer, it worked fine.

OnCider

Ah, that explains it. Same initials. Spoiled a bit of the fun, though... :)

Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 07 06:02 AM EST

Katarina,

Thanks for the tip - works fine with IE - strange that the first name changes between Andy and Andrew - I can be Mungo or Podo!

Posted by Andy @ 2001 Jun 07 06:06 AM EST

I'm not sure if it works with 1st and last letters. My mother is Marketa and it generated Primula for her too.

Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 07 06:09 AM EST

Yes, there must be something else in it. My friend is ANNA and her hobbit name is Rosie-Posie. I tried to change my name to CATERINA and it generated ALSO Rosie-Posie to me. Strange things happen in Shire nowadays...

Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 07 06:16 AM EST

Strange things indeed. I was sacrilegous enough to try John Tolkien (it won't accept multiple first names or initials) and that turned out to be Myrtle Gamgee-Took of Bywater! I thought Myrtle was a female name??

Now this is SUCH a SCHOLARLY discussion. We have certainly strayed far from Pelennor Fields. ;) Debbie, post another chapter-comment! We're losing ourselves out here! Having fun, though. :)

Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 07 06:42 AM EST

I put in John Durno at the same time as I put in Allison Durno and John ended up with Olo Foxburr (to go with my Orangeblossom Foxburr).

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 07 06:52 AM EST

Someone should create a generator of ENT names.
It cold be funny to introduce myself (only abbreviated, of course) as KATELINDËRONDELÍRDENÄ STRODELËRIENDOVELINDOVA of PRAGEFANGORNULINGUE.
Hoom, hom, what a name!
:oD

Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 07 06:55 AM EST

Katarina, very funny thing you made. You put JOHN TOLKIEN to FEMALE columns! JOHN as male is OLO indeed. :oD

Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 07 07:03 AM EST

Oh no, FEMALE columns! I've obviously hung around this comptuer too long now, my brain is starting to slip real bad..
.
I'm taking a break. Health reasons... See you later!

Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 07 07:30 AM EST

Anyone know any LOTR related jokes?

Fredegar Toadfoot
Frogmorton

Posted by Dom @ 2001 Jun 07 08:50 AM EST

You think Broadbelt has bad implications? My hobbit name is Hambut Hamwich of Buckleberry Ferry!

Posted by Paul Mendenhall @ 2001 Jun 07 08:58 AM EST

Ah, someone beat me to the Macbeth reference! Darn! Shows what can happen when you're away from your computer for half a day!

Tolkien did have a kind of love/hate relationship with Shakespeare. As a specialist in Old English, he was not too fond of anything that happened after the Norman invasion (and had a life-long dislike of the French!) but couldn't help but be moved by Shakespeare's innovative use of language and dramatic skill. You can mine a lot of Shakespeare references out of Tolkien's works if you've a mind to.

Estella Cotton of Overhill (but I think my real last name is very Hobbit-y to begin with -- it means a small farm or cottage!)

Posted by Janet Croft @ 2001 Jun 07 09:21 AM EST

Hmmm. I'm not sure I like it: Drogo Loamsdown of Great Smials

Posted by Emre @ 2001 Jun 07 09:54 AM EST

Hee hee, as a cat owner I love today's "Waiting For Frodo" update :).

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 07 09:55 AM EST

...and forgot to say: thanks to the Kats

Posted by Emre @ 2001 Jun 07 09:55 AM EST

I was going to wait and attach this letter to Deb's new post, but since she's running later than normal, I'll risk it at the end of this 100+ letter thread and ask your indulgence if I re-post it in the next letter column, too.

I've been thinking over another Tolkien-based project this week and I was wondering if anyone here would be interested in being involved. Over the course of Deb's journal I've been especially interested in the conversations about music and Tolkien-inspired songs. I'm discovering, for example, that there are a lot more Tolkien filksongs out there then I've ever known about. Just last night Rob Wynne e-mailed me six marvelous LOTR songs by a songwriter named Teri who lives in Georgia (all six songs inspired by Book 5, I notice :)) The more songs like this that I see the more inspired I am to want to write Tolkien songs of my own. It certainly seems to be the perfect time to be writing such songs.

So, is anyone elso out there musing through Tolkien lyrics in their head or interested in trying their hand at a Tolkien-related song? If there is interest, I'd like to set up a forum on Deb's message boards to share our song plans or just to encourage each other and, ideally, eventually make a casual, non-commercial compilation of the songs we come up with to share among ourselves. Songs can be original, parodies, song settings of Tolkien poetry or poetry/lyrics someone else may wish to set to music.

Other filkers on this board have seen such projects launched before with varying degrees of success. I'd be really keen to initiate a Tolkien song project and see it through, though, if for no other reason than to inspire my own songwriting. Please let me know if you would be interested in participating in such a project.

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 07 10:08 AM EST

I believe Andy is referring to the Icelandic Eddas. I found this site last Fri, and was several hours into it when my ISP crashed.... Mon. evening this was the first place I came to after 72+ hours of being disconnected, but who's counting? Would love to see this continue with The Hobbit and The Silmarillion and more.

Posted by Lisa @ 2001 Jun 07 10:24 AM EST

I know it sounds fun, but I really recommend against a group reading of the Sil. It's a really tough book (especially the first part) and some readers might get frustrated if they can't keep up with the group. Many people start but don't finish the Sil for a variety of reasons; I fear a group read would add another one.
Just my 43 cents.

Posted by Huan @ 2001 Jun 07 10:40 AM EST

Allison, I'd be very interested in such a discussion. The other night I started writing a song (just with piano accompaniment) to The Man In The Moon Came Down Too Soon, and I'm always interested to hear what other people come up with in this vein. Let me know what you come up with!

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 07 10:41 AM EST

I would like to encourage a Sil. discussion, (again). There does seam to many interested parties.

Many people seam to get bogged down and stop reading The Sil. in the early parts. I would greatly encourage those in that situation to join me (us, whoever) in reading the Sil. and commenting on it.

I am currently reading The Book of Lost Tales Vol. 2, and I just finished the early version of The Tale of Turin Turambar. That is a very emotional story....I would like to see the reactions of this group to that story. As well as the other great stories in The Silmarillion.

Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 07 11:08 AM EST

Tried several times to read Sil (even got the Martin Shaw tapes) but got bogged down very early on and gave up so I think a group reading would give me that extra incentive to persevere!

Posted by Andy @ 2001 Jun 07 11:25 AM EST

A group reading of Sil sounds like a great idea. Maybe if people have a tough time getting through the chapters, they can still see what the discussion is about and this will encourage them to try the next one. I've read the book a couple of times and find I still have to think hard about just what he is trying to say and so tend to lose the flow of the narrative. It would be interesting to check someone else's struggle while going through it myself.

Posted by Silmarien @ 2001 Jun 07 12:02 PM EST

Huan - I think it's worth a try to do a group read. If not we'll always wonder "what if" - you never know until you try 8-).

Aside from that, I can honestly say that if I had a group of folks to ask questions about it and was able to get got up in the emotion of real fans (like I have become) then my first attempt would have been that much easier (I failed after about 50 pages the first time).

Posted by Lindo @ 2001 Jun 07 12:15 PM EST

Good point Lindo.

I hope to help people "over the hump" and get to the good parts of The Sil. I'm tempted to say "skip the first parts" because the creation part is not that important to the rest of it....but I think that a group will help ease people through.

Also the amount of names and places can be overwelming. I read it twice, back to back. I don't want to give spoilers but there is some really great stuff in The Sil. Just don't expect another LOTR. It's more like a fun history lesson. (I wish I could have had this to study in High School)

Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 07 12:34 PM EST

My interpretation of the business about "no man harming the Witch King" is that it was literally true: the sorceries that protected him included wards against Humans (and against Elves, Dwarfs, and Ents). And Glorfindel knew it. Hobbits, however, seem to have been left off all the old lists...

Posted by Joel Polowin @ 2001 Jun 07 12:45 PM EST

The Silmarillion would describe the events of TLOTR in a single chapter at most, maybe as few as five lines. There are dozens of events in the Silmarillion which would need books as long as TLOTR to describe in full.

It's not a novel, and can't be read as such, but it does contain sketches of dozens of truly epic stories.

Posted by Robert @ 2001 Jun 07 12:45 PM EST

Yes, I'd love a group Sil reading, too. I tried reading the Hobbit, and then later FOTR, but in both books I couldn't get past the shire until I took a Tolkien class and now I'm glad I did! I'd really like to read the Sil, but I know I wouldn't get through without support! (We should probably pace it, though.) :)
--Nywoe

Posted by Nywoe @ 2001 Jun 07 12:57 PM EST

PJ Says he is using Arwen's appearances in the appendix - I think he is going to beef up the part where it says that Arwen "shares her torment with Aragorn while he is on the Paths of the Dead". I'm guessing that she is going to have some type of mental connection with him and actually "see" what he is seeing, and "feel" what he is feeling... Just another way to get her on camera during a part of the film when no mention is made of her in the book...

Posted by RChris @ 2001 Jun 07 01:14 PM EST

late again. here's =my= hobbit name! Ponto Tighfield of Tookbank. Could that mean that i am a =really distant= relative of the Tooks?

Posted by yiorgos @ 2001 Jun 07 01:17 PM EST

I'm still all for a group reading of The Silmarillion. I've tried it twice on my own, and just gave up. So I realize that The Silmarillion is someting completely different from LoTR.

And Huan, I will surely be frustrated! I like this site's mix of Tolkien-scholars and ordinary LoTR-lovers, and also the open discussion climate that Debbie has created with her "what is this whole thing about, anyway?" approach. And my hopes are that some of this climate will brush off on the reading group (The Fellowship of The Silmarillion?), so that it will be quite OK to be frustated there.

I, for one, will probably provide the discussion with a lot of exlamations like "I don't get a thing, please someone explain!", "I miss the hobbits!!" and "So where is the story in all this??". And maybe later I will go "If Beren/Lúthien/Tuor/Isildur etc is hurt, I'm going to be really upset!!" :))

I've decided to read The Silmarillion now, whatever. But I will much rather venture on that expedition with companions!

Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 07 01:28 PM EST

It's been a decade or more since I read LOTR and I keep meaning to repeat it but I have a pile of other books awaiting me. With all the current hype it's difficult not to give in especially with quotes such as the one above which details Dernhelm revealing his/her true identity. Three times today I've returned to this page to read the quote and each time a lump has appeared in my throat and a swelling of the tear ducts has been valiantly repelled.
This may well be my favourite scene from the book (you must see the illustration by John Howe titled Eowyn And The Nazgul at the very first opportunity) but I am still dismayed at my reaction to reading the aforementioned tiny excerpt. I have no idea what the emotion is I feel as I read it. Joy, sadness, pride, maybe it’s the clash of all three at once mingling together.

My apologies for the confused ramblings.

The original reason behind this comment was to ensure you check out John Howe’s illustration, I hope you enjoy it as much as I.

Posted by Annatar The Fair @ 2001 Jun 07 01:39 PM EST

My sister's name is Anna too and she got Rosie-Posie as a name. My friend's name is Christina and guess what, she's Rosie-Posie!

Andy, your surname, is it close to Osterwald? Because you got the same hobbit last name as me.

Paul must = Hambut, because my friend's name is Paul and he got Hambut too. His brother ended up with "Dimple".

Posted by talierin @ 2001 Jun 07 02:13 PM EST

Allison,

I think the Tolkien song group is a great idea. Count me in if you start it.

Posted by J'nae Rae Campbell @ 2001 Jun 07 05:24 PM EST

Allison,

I haven't thought to write any Tolkien inspired songs in years, but your idea sounds like fun. I'd like to have a go at it . When I was a teenager, I had ambitions to write a "rock opera" based on LOTR. Fortunately for the world, I never did follow through and actually do it. I did found a band named Moria though....:-).

Posted by Jeff Bohnhoff @ 2001 Jun 07 07:50 PM EST

My name is Pimpernel Bracegirdle of Hardbottle (quite a mouthful isn't it?) I sure was hoping to be related to Frodo, but maybe I'm still a long lost relative. I can only hope.

Posted by Roland @ 2001 Jun 08 01:55 PM EST

I ended up as Drogo Broadbelt of Buckland, and my wife's maiden name was Dimple Sandybanks of Frogmorten.

I like the idea of a Silmarillion discussion, but are we going to desert Debbie when she reads the Hobbit?

Posted by dave @ 2001 Jun 08 10:16 PM EST

No way will I desert Deb when she chooses to read "The Hobbit"! :) She says she will be taking a break, though, between LOTR and "The Hobbit", which should give us a chance to start up with "The Silmarillion".

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 08 11:12 PM EST

Wait, wait. No mention of that delightful handclasp when Eomer and Aragorn meet "with all the hosts of Mordor between us"?

I loved the personal triumphs of every single character in this chapter. Merry was outstanding, Eowyn was incredible, Eomer was great (does anyone else have a private grin for "and he was young, and he was king" like I do?), Theoden died the way he wanted to, and then hurray for Aragorn coming to the rescue! Happy sigh. :)

BTW, a few people commented on how unusual Eowyn's behavior was. In riding out to war, yes; but in being trained, no. She knew how to handle that blade, and the text makes it pretty clear that it wasn't just from watching Eomer's lessons while she sat on the sidelines. The Rohirrim treated their women right, even if they did prefer to make Eowyn de facto ruler instead of letting her ride to war. (And yes, that was deliberate sarcasm. )

Posted by Sandy @ 2001 Jun 21 01:03 PM EST

I think if I'd been Eowyn, I'd want to ride and help defeat the enemy. If the army is destroyed, those left behind will have been done no favor by having been protected from the battle which could have saved their way of life. Eowyn knew she was capable of aiding her people in battle and that was where she (and all those so capable) was needed.

Posted by dave @ 2001 Jun 23 10:19 AM EST

I am rather surprised no one has commented on Prince Imrahil and his knights in this or the last few chapters. It seems he is bit player but he plays a huge role in the grand scheme of things.
i will post some pertenant lines from the books.

The knights arrive as Pippen and Bergil watch the forces of the south enter.
"And last and proudest,Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the Lord, with guilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses; and behind them seven hundreds of men at arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark haired, singing as they came."

just a bit player yet but during the siege of gondor in chapter 4 he shows up again with his knights.

"And the the trumpet rang from the Citadel, and Denethor at last released the sortie. Drawn up withing the shadow of the Gate and under the looming walss outside the waited for his signal:all the mounted men that were left in the City. Now they sprang forward,formed,quickened to a gallop, and charged with a great shout. And from the walls an answering shout went up; for foremost on the field rode the swan-knights of Dol Amroth with thier Prince and his blue banner at thier head.
'Amroth for Gondor!' they cried. 'Amroth to Faramir!'"

and when they have rescued the retreating men of Minas Tirith and returned to the city.

"Last of all he came. His men passed in. The mounted knights returned, and at thier rear the banner of Dol Amroth, and the Prince. And in his arms before him on his horse he bore the body of his kinsman, Faramir son of Denethor, found upon the stricken field.
Faramir! Faramir! men cried, weeping in the streets. But he did not answer, and they bore him away up the winding road to the Citadel and his father. Even as the Nagul had swerved aside from the onset of the White Rider, there came flying a deasdly dart, and Faramir, as he held at bay a mounted champion of Harad, had fallen to the earth. Onlt the charge of Dol Amroth had saved him from the red southland sword that would have hewed him as he lay."

So it seems that evenfor a bit character, he saved the life of one of the great people in the story, and that is not the last heard of them, not in the least!

When Denethor was grief stricken and not acting in the best interest of the war, Imrrahil was the right hand man of Gandalf.

"so it was that Gandalf took command of the last defence of the City of Gondor. Where ever he cam mens hearts would lift again, and the winged shadow pass from memory. Tierlessly he strode from Citadel to Gate, from north to south about the wall; and with him went the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shining Mail. For he and his knights still held themselves like lords in whom the race of Numenor ran true. Men that saw them whispered saying :'Belike the old tales speak well; there is evish blood in the veins of that folk, for the people of nimrodel dwelt in that lad once long ago.' And then oune would sing amid the gloom some staves of the Lay of Nimrodel, or other songs of the Vale of Anduin out of banished years."

So it seems while all else was afraid and hunkering down with fear, Prince Imrahil and his knights still held true and even helped to raise spirits! But is this all we hear of the knights and thier leader??? NO!

this chapter seen the riders riding in to save the day and the fall of King Theoden and the fight of Eowyn and the Nazgul whom felled her. While none checked for life, bearing her and King Theoden back to Minas Tirith enters none other than Prince Imrahil!

"It was through a mist that presetly he saw a van of the men of Gondor approaching.(Merry seing this) Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, rode up and drew in rein before them.
'What buden do you bear, Men of Rohan?' he cried.
'Theoden King,' they answered. 'He is Dead. But Eomer King now rides in the battle; He with the white crest in the wind.'
Then the prince went from his horse, and knelt by th bier in the honour of the king and his great onset; and he wept. and rising he looked then on Eowyn and was amazed. 'Surely, here is a woman?' he said. 'Have the women of the Rohirrim come to war in our need?'
'Nay! One only,' they answered 'The Lady Eowyn is she, sister of Eomer; and we knew naught of her riding until this hour, and greatly we rue it.'
Tehn the prince seeing her beauty, though her face was pale and cold, touched her hand as he bent to look more closely on her face. 'Men of Rohan!' he cried. 'Are there no leeches among you? She is hurt, to the death maybe, but I deem that she yet lives.' And he held the bright-burnished bambrace that was upon his arm before her cold lips, and behold! a little mist was laid on it hardly to be seen.
'Hste now is needed,' he said, and he sent one riding back swiftly to the City to bring Aid. But He bowing low to the fallen, Bade them farewell, and mounting rode away into battle."

Ok, hows that for honour, he took the time out of battle not only to pay respects to the King of Rohan, but to very possible save Eowyns life!

Then Aragorn arives! and Imrahil is not inactive then either.

East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them; troll-men and variags and orcs that hated the sunlight. South strode Eomer and men fled before his face, and the were caught between the hammer and the anvil.

after the battle Aragorn and Eomer and Imrahil rode back towards the Gate of the City, and they were now weary beyond joy or sorrow. These three were unscathed, for such was thier fortune and the skill and might of thier arms, and few indeed had dared to abide them or look on thier faces in the hour of thier wrath.

well, that just goes to show you that he was not a bit character and should have at least been mentioned in your post, not only did he save Faramir, but saved also Eowyn and was beside Gandlaf,Eomer, Aragorn and kin to Denethor.

Posted by Hevron Pathor, Knight of Dol Amroth @ 2001 Jun 24 08:16 PM EST

I am rather surprised no one has commented on Prince Imrahil and his knights in this or the last few chapters. It seems he is bit player but he plays a huge role in the grand scheme of things.
i will post some pertenant lines from the books.

The knights arrive as Pippen and Bergil watch the forces of the south enter.
"And last and proudest,Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the Lord, with guilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses; and behind them seven hundreds of men at arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark haired, singing as they came."

just a bit player yet but during the siege of gondor in chapter 4 he shows up again with his knights.

"And the the trumpet rang from the Citadel, and Denethor at last released the sortie. Drawn up withing the shadow of the Gate and under the looming walss outside the waited for his signal:all the mounted men that were left in the City. Now they sprang forward,formed,quickened to a gallop, and charged with a great shout. And from the walls an answering shout went up; for foremost on the field rode the swan-knights of Dol Amroth with thier Prince and his blue banner at thier head.
'Amroth for Gondor!' they cried. 'Amroth to Faramir!'"

and when they have rescued the retreating men of Minas Tirith and returned to the city.

"Last of all he came. His men passed in. The mounted knights returned, and at thier rear the banner of Dol Amroth, and the Prince. And in his arms before him on his horse he bore the body of his kinsman, Faramir son of Denethor, found upon the stricken field.
Faramir! Faramir! men cried, weeping in the streets. But he did not answer, and they bore him away up the winding road to the Citadel and his father. Even as the Nagul had swerved aside from the onset of the White Rider, there came flying a deasdly dart, and Faramir, as he held at bay a mounted champion of Harad, had fallen to the earth. Onlt the charge of Dol Amroth had saved him from the red southland sword that would have hewed him as he lay."

So it seems that evenfor a bit character, he saved the life of one of the great people in the story, and that is not the last heard of them, not in the least!

When Denethor was grief stricken and not acting in the best interest of the war, Imrrahil was the right hand man of Gandalf.

"so it was that Gandalf took command of the last defence of the City of Gondor. Where ever he cam mens hearts would lift again, and the winged shadow pass from memory. Tierlessly he strode from Citadel to Gate, from north to south about the wall; and with him went the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shining Mail. For he and his knights still held themselves like lords in whom the race of Numenor ran true. Men that saw them whispered saying :'Belike the old tales speak well; there is evish blood in the veins of that folk, for the people of nimrodel dwelt in that lad once long ago.' And then oune would sing amid the gloom some staves of the Lay of Nimrodel, or other songs of the Vale of Anduin out of banished years."

So it seems while all else was afraid and hunkering down with fear, Prince Imrahil and his knights still held true and even helped to raise spirits! But is this all we hear of the knights and thier leader??? NO!

this chapter seen the riders riding in to save the day and the fall of King Theoden and the fight of Eowyn and the Nazgul whom felled her. While none checked for life, bearing her and King Theoden back to Minas Tirith enters none other than Prince Imrahil!

"It was through a mist that presetly he saw a van of the men of Gondor approaching.(Merry seing this) Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, rode up and drew in rein before them.
'What buden do you bear, Men of Rohan?' he cried.
'Theoden King,' they answered. 'He is Dead. But Eomer King now rides in the battle; He with the white crest in the wind.'
Then the prince went from his horse, and knelt by th bier in the honour of the king and his great onset; and he wept. and rising he looked then on Eowyn and was amazed. 'Surely, here is a woman?' he said. 'Have the women of the Rohirrim come to war in our need?'
'Nay! One only,' they answered 'The Lady Eowyn is she, sister of Eomer; and we knew naught of her riding until this hour, and greatly we rue it.'
Tehn the prince seeing her beauty, though her face was pale and cold, touched her hand as he bent to look more closely on her face. 'Men of Rohan!' he cried. 'Are there no leeches among you? She is hurt, to the death maybe, but I deem that she yet lives.' And he held the bright-burnished bambrace that was upon his arm before her cold lips, and behold! a little mist was laid on it hardly to be seen.
'Hste now is needed,' he said, and he sent one riding back swiftly to the City to bring Aid. But He bowing low to the fallen, Bade them farewell, and mounting rode away into battle."

Ok, hows that for honour, he took the time out of battle not only to pay respects to the King of Rohan, but to very possible save Eowyns life!

Then Aragorn arives! and Imrahil is not inactive then either.

East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them; troll-men and variags and orcs that hated the sunlight. South strode Eomer and men fled before his face, and the were caught between the hammer and the anvil.

after the battle Aragorn and Eomer and Imrahil rode back towards the Gate of the City, and they were now weary beyond joy or sorrow. These three were unscathed, for such was thier fortune and the skill and might of thier arms, and few indeed had dared to abide them or look on thier faces in the hour of thier wrath.

well, that just goes to show you that he was not a bit character and should have at least been mentioned in your post, not only did he save Faramir, but saved also Eowyn and was beside Gandlaf,Eomer, Aragorn and kin to Denethor.

Posted by Hevron Pathor, Knight of Dol Amroth @ 2001 Jun 24 08:16 PM EST

Huzzah for Amroth! I've already mentioned how I like Ghan-Buri-Ghan who has a very minor part but one which is critical. As you quote about the hammer and anvil. I like the way Tolkien shows that evil is defeated by the combined actions of many who are not normally even friends. Dwarves and Elves, Ents, riders. The valor of those who traditionally opposed Sauron is also needed. I always liked Faramir and Amroth both. I think Faramir more because he dealt with the Ringbearer, but without Amroth I don't think Aragorn would have found a kingdom to return to.

Posted by dave @ 2001 Jun 24 10:40 PM EST