Poor Gandalf, needed in so many places at once, knowing that his choices will mean bad things for those he doesn't help right away. A pity we never get to see inside Gandalf's head, though keeping point of view usually to that of the hobbits is probably less confusing, and keeps Gandalf somewhat mysterious. :-)
Denethor certainly did lose it in the end, didn't he? What a waste, that tragic, mad figure. Part of me does feel a bit sorry for him, seeing everything he loves being taken away from him (in his point of view):
One of the reasons I definitely would like to re-read LOTR is to see Denethor with this new perspective, looking for clues that reveal how jealous he is of Gandalf. He's being massively unfair, of course...Denethor only had criticism and insults for Faramir before, and suddenly now he's the most precious thing in his life (what remains of his life).
A pretty grim chapter, I must say. :-(
Replies: 13 comments
Quite moving and tragic. I find it a shame we don't get to see more of Denethor (as well as many other characters!) in the books.
Posted by Christopher B. @ 2001 Jun 07 12:51 PM EST
When you finish the story, there's information in the Appendix about Denethor's youth, and his rival...
Posted by EricD @ 2001 Jun 07 12:55 PM EST
Denthor would be a great charater to play. And very challenging.
This goes to show the evils of Sauron can act in many ways. Trying to destroy his enemies from within as well as without. (I think he leared that from Morgoth). Keep it up Deb.....we are almost back to Frodo and Sam.
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 07 01:03 PM EST
Denethor shows the LoTR isn't just black and white. He's wrong but he's not evil the way Sauron is. His flaws, and his crimes, are human. Few of us can be confident we wouldn't make the same mistakes if placed under such stress.
Appendix A gives more information about Denethor's youth. There's only one page but it may make his motivations clearer.
Posted by Robert @ 2001 Jun 07 01:10 PM EST
aka Mungo Boggy-Hillocks! Yes, the appendix is a good place to learn more about Denethor, but I
do feel more pity than anger at him. Through the Palantir Sauron had been slowly, but surely,
sapping his strength and his sanity. Few could have withstood it as long as he did. Still, he made the
original mistake of using the Palantir at all - knowing the perils involved.
Posted by Charly @ 2001 Jun 07 01:22 PM EST
Seeing inside Gandalf's head would be... interesting. He's an ancient and powerful spirit, wearing a human-like body while he's hanging around with the people of Middle Earth. Remember his comments to Frodo in Rivendell about the "wraith-world" and how, for a moment, Frodo had seen Glorfindel "as he appears on the other side" as a shining figure? And Glorfindel's saying to Strider that "there are evil things written on this hilt, though perhaps your eyes cannot see them". These beings literally have additional perceptions, and a sort of alternate existence, beyond the mundane.
Posted by Joel Polowin @ 2001 Jun 07 01:56 PM EST
I felt (a little bit) for Denethor but I was terribly afraid of what happens with Faramir when I read it for the first time.
Very important thought:
"...and the porter lay before it.
He was slain and his key had been taken.
'Work of the Enemy!' said Gandalf. 'Such deeds he loves: friend at war
with friend; loyalty divided in confusion of hearts.'"
I always feel sorry for Beregond because of this necessary deed he must have done :o(
And I hate that black bastard Sauron, >;~/
Posted by Katerina Strosova @ 2001 Jun 07 02:10 PM EST
Understood about the appendices and other sources for additional information about Denethor and others. What I meant was I wished the story had been expanded ;) We get to spend too little time with many of these people that we meet. The appendices are great! for what they provide.
As for the "slow" sections of the book - the length, scope, and variety of the tale allows more discovery with each reading - as long as one is able to refrain from assigning a label "boring" to a section and thus skipped in subsequent readings it is possible to get more each time. At first one may race to the end - but later on one may wish to tarry a bit here and there and see some new sights with the minds eye. I find the tale ends to quickly for me these days. 2 pennies
Posted by Christopher B. @ 2001 Jun 07 05:08 PM EST
You do have an opportunity to peek into Gandalf's head - somewhat - but it is by far the closest chance we have. Get a copy of "Unfinished Tales." But read it AFTER you have read the Hobbit, so you don't have spoliers. You'll find a couple long accounts from Gandalf, especially one where he talks about getting Bilbo and the dwarfs involved in their quest to the Lonely Mountain. You'll also get a fascinating description of the Black Riders - more info on them than you ever get in LotR.
Posted by Joel B. @ 2001 Jun 08 09:38 AM EST
Anyone else think that 'The Tragedie of Denethor' should have been written by Shakespeare (I know JRRT wasn't a fan)? I can see it now, Denethor as the aged yet still ambitious ruler, threatened by the conniving upstart and political opportunist Aragorn who murders one son and corrupts the other. Gandalf would be in the background as arch-manipulator, there would be comic relief courtesy of the hobbits, and for love-interest Eowyn the king's niece who loves Faramir, but will be forced to a political marriage with Aragron. I can see it now at the RSC...
Act One, Scene One
First Watchman: Halt! Who goes there, friend or foe?
Speak if you be of Gondor and not villain.
Second Watchman: Peace Beregond! We come to change the Guard,
And do you spare your fury for our foes –
There’s blood enough to come, without we find it here.
Beregond: Now are you welcome. ’Tis the cursèd dark,
This mirk from Mordor that infects the mind
As well as blind the eye. A grim night, friends,
And I am glad to leave you.
Third Watchman: What, so fast?
Wilt not thou stay and take some cheer with us?
Tell us the least – the night is quiet?
Beregond: Ay, quiet as ‘tis black (and ’shall be glad, methinks
For quiet when the Enemy comes forth,
Tho’ black grow still more fearsome in that time)
But none has passed this way tonight, and I think
None is like to come.
Second Watchman: None has passed?
Beregond: None – but my Lord Steward.
Third Watchman: What? The Lord Denethor has come this way?
Beregond: ’Tis th’road to the high tower and there he goes
Most nights in the deadtime when a man
As aged as he and with such heavy care
Should sleep and fit his body for the morrow,
Not wear his mind in cunning and strange deeds.
Second Watchman: In truth, our Lord is much distract of late.
Spends his days in policy and council, receives the messengers
And quite wears out a dozen secretries,
And greybeards of a score less years than him
Would hold no shame to take them to their beds
And spend the night in sleep’s care-easeful arms.
Yet he will not – will not, but takes his way
T’th’library, to study words of yore
As if sought to find some marvellous way,
Some long-forgotten wonder known
In Elder days to aid the present time.
And thence, to the Tower.
Beregond: ’Twas ever thus,
Sith we heard tell that Boromir was slain….
Sorry, got rather carried away!
You get the idea.
Posted by Catherine McKiernan @ 2001 Jun 15 07:14 AM EST
Catherine,
That was great! I dare you to complete it.
Posted by J'nae Rae Campbell @ 2001 Jun 15 09:07 AM EST
I liked that Catherine :o)
Posted by dave @ 2001 Jun 15 03:17 PM EST
Wow, I'm impressed, Catherine!
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 18 02:17 PM EST
