Just to let you know...my report postings are going to be somewhat irregular over the next few weeks since I'll be out of town quite a bit. Perhaps I can convince Allison to start up the Silmarillion reading group earlier than later, for those interested. :-)
Anyway, back to Chapter 8.
This was somewhat more of a difficult chapter for me to get through. I've never been that crazy out people telling others what happened, rather than the reader "seeing" it happen. I had to reread Gimli's account of the Paths of the Dead adventure a few times before it really sunk in, for example
I suspect it was also harder for me to get through this chapter because I've never really been into battle strategizing (I'm sure some of you will jump on me about that), and also because there wasn't a lot of hobbit involvement.
Replies: 14 comments
Somewhat irregular? Oh no....you are so close to the end.
These chapters are a kind of a lull after the climax of the battle. Not too exciting, but you would be wondering what had happened to everyone if not for these chapters.
Just keep thinking of poor Sam & Frodo.
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 07 01:21 PM EST
I think Debbie's difficulties with this chapter are a reflection of our truncated attention-span. When you live in a culture that considers anything longer than a five-second shot in a movie "sluggish," it becomes hard to relax into a "listening" mode. Which ultimately will spell the death of poetry, theatrical drama, and most literature. Other modes of communication and art are taking their place of course, but at what cost?
Food for thought.
Posted by Paul Mendenhall @ 2001 Jun 07 01:24 PM EST
I have to beg to differ here, Paul. I think that my difficulty with this chapter is not so much because of my "truncated attention-span", but simply because I've never been a big fan of "telling instead of showing", nor of strategic planning in warfare. I have a great appreciation of poetry, theatrical drama, and literature, but my tastes may not be the same as yours.
Posted by Debbie @ 2001 Jun 07 01:26 PM EST
I like this chapter quite a lot. It shows that even a won bettle is just a battle and a lot of sorrow comes out of it. And they can feel it is not over yet. :o(
Legolas' mood when he speaks of gulls is interesting. It is maybe first time when we can see him like this, so deep in his own feelings. Well, elfs are interesting creatures at all. I don't remember seeing Legolas in a bad mood or angry in that human way. He is light hearted but sad at the same time...well, it is needless to tell you that :o)
I'm looking forward to see Imrahil in the movie. I hope he IS in the movie... Very interesting person, indeed :o)
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 07 02:12 PM EST
Ehm, forget please those mistakes in spelling appearing in my posts. I'm a little bit tired of watching the screen these days :o)
And Debbie, I'm VERY FOND OF YOUR COMMENTS! I Like this site. Hope we avoid spoilers :o))))
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 07 02:28 PM EST
Karerina Str.,
The elves don't show much emotional change as is their way but it you were thousands of years old a few months events wouldn't be that traumatic. The elves are sad too, they seam to feel that thier time is growing short on middle earth.
Remember when Galadriel said to Legolas to beware the Sea? This is what she meant. He has heard the gulls and the long lost urnings to go to the blessed realm across the sea, have hooked him.
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 07 02:34 PM EST
Debbie,
I see your problem with this chapter, but I also see why it was necessary for Tolkien to handle it this way. He obviously wanted the reader to be unaware of the events Aragorn and company were experiencing, so that their arrival at the Battle of the Pellanor Fields would be be a surprise, and allow the protagonists to snatch victory from what appeared to be certain defeat. However, once they've appeared, a chapter going back and showing us that episode would interupt the narrative flow. In general, I agree with you that showing is better than telling, and battle planning strategy is not my favorite element of the story. However, in this case, I think both are necessary. I just try to put myself into "campfire listening mode" when I read this chapter.
Posted by Jeff Bohnhoff @ 2001 Jun 07 02:48 PM EST
urnings?
Posted by anonymous @ 2001 Jun 07 03:54 PM EST
I know....I'm a much better reader than speller.
"yearnings"
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 07 04:42 PM EST
Debbie,
After I posted the last comment, I regretted it, because I was afraid you would take it as a personal criticism, and you did; that wasn't my intention at all. Sorry!
What I meant was, because we have grown up in a "visual" culture, and so much of our time has been spent in front of screens, being "shown" instead of "told," we all have a hard time with pure exposition. Whereas, in traditional cultures, the primary form of entertainment was sitting around listening to the elders (or, if they were really lucky, professional "bards,") tell tales.
When Tolkien shifts from a more modern novelistic technique to these "drier" debates, or one character telling another about his experiences, he assumes a willingness to merely "sit and listen," a patience on the part of the reader that is becoming rare. And I include myself in that!
I remember when "Raiders of the Lost Ark" was first released, I disliked it because it seemed ludicrously fast-paced to me, so much so that it was impossible for me to establish any connection to the characters and their problems. Now when I look at it, it seems sluggish! Our attention spans have been altered that much in twenty years! Or look at commercials on television now. They go by in the time it used to take just to show the product logo! All the better to program us to buy, buy, buy!
As you might have guessed, this is a personal hang-up of mine...
At any rate, no criticism of you personally was meant, Debbie. Just an observation on one of the reasons why were are all less patient with being "told" insteead of "shown."
Posted by Paul Mendenhall @ 2001 Jun 08 12:29 PM EST
Despite the telling not showing narrative style, which I personally loathe, I return to the beginning of this chapter again and again for the small moments between friends while the wise and mighty talk battle plans.
I love the incongruity of Elf and Dwarf, supposed enemies, walking Minas Tirith together - a sight
probably not seen, if ever, in a long, long age. I ache for poor Legolas' awakened longing for the
sea, and Gimli and Merry's heartfelt plea that it will be a duller world if their elf friend went to the Havens.
I also really like Legolas' statements that it was only love of Aragorn that kept them on the Paths of the Dead and how terrible Aragorn would have been had he taken the Ring.
And most of all, I love the melancholy exchange between Legolas and Gimli that echoes much earlier statements in FOTR by Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond. "The deeds of Men will outlast us, Gimli." "And yet come to naught in the end but might-have beens, I guess," said the Dwarf.
So very, very sad.
Posted by Tish @ 2001 Jun 08 01:58 PM EST
Big Mike,
I understand it. I wanted to say that Legolas is different from this chapter on and I look at him from another corner. That's one of the reasons why I think this chapter is important.
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 11 07:36 AM EST
Hi Debbie! Enjoying your site, which I heard about through TORN. Will definitely recommend it to other Tolkien neophytes.
When I first read LOTR, I found some of it long-winded and boring. But this was a blessing in disguise -- when I return to the books now, the parts I once found dull are now something new to explore! In fact, I've read my favourite passages so many times I've sadly beaten them to death -- so thank goodness for the sections that used to bore me to tears.
(Of course I now love even the colossally tedious Silmarillion, -- a sure sign of mental disorder.)
puty
Posted by puty @ 2001 Jun 19 12:22 AM EST
Just want to point out that JRRT wanted the entire story told in the perspective of the Little People, as chronicled in the Red Book, which is basically Bilbo's diary passed on to Frodo passed on to ... tell you later.
So a chapter devoted to the Paths of the Dead would have been inconsistent with the hobbit perspective. In the entire trilogy, only Aragorn's chase of the Uruk-hai is told without a hobbit present.
Interesting to find out if the movie will try to keep this perspective...
:)
Posted by kenshin @ 2001 Jul 24 07:07 PM EST
