Back to Chapter 2...
Poor Frodo...the Ring is obviously weighing him down. He seems incredibly frail, pessimistic and weary compared to Sam, doesn't he? How lucky he is to have Sam there to take care of him. Kinda creepy that Frodo can sense a Black Rider when it passes nearby. What other effects has the Ring had on him, I wonder? I hope when all this is over (AND ASSUMING THAT SAM STILL LIVES!!! NOTHING BAD HAD BETTER HAPPEN TO SAM!!!), Sam is hailed as a hero almost as much as Frodo. Somehow I doubt it will happen, though...Sam seems to be one of those quiet type of heroes, the ones you don't read about in newspapers because their deeds aren't necessarily as dramatic or in the public eye as much as publicly worshipped hero-types. It's clear that Frodo never would have gotten this far had it not been for Sam:
Interesting how Frodo refers to the Ring as a "great wheel of fire". I wonder where this came from? Or did this phrase come up earlier in the book and I just missed it?
Eek, scary to think of Frodo and Sam plodding along with the rest of those Orcs, masquerading as one of them.
It's pretty clear that the two hobbits are near the end of their strength. WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN?!? How will Frodo know where to find the place to pitch the Ring? What will Gollum do once he realizes that Frodo wants to destroy his Precious? Will the Bad Guys find out? What's going on with the others? THE TENSION IS KILLING ME!!!
I am going to grit my teeth and honour Allison's request by purposely NOT reading further until I know I'm able to post a report online. Hopefully that will be sooner than later.
Since I read more of LOTR instead of packing like I should be doing :-), I'd better get back to the latter so I'll be ready to leave tomorrow morning.
Replies: 164 comments
Tension... yeah, it still drives me crazy every time I read this last book. I get so into what's going on with the particular bunch of characters then I turn the page to another chapter and wham! It's back to someone else.
Arghhh! I want to know what's going on over there! Not here!
Of course, by the time we switch back I want the exact opposite. :)
Even now when I darn well know what's going on with everyone at any given moment. Guess it's part of what makes reading these books so great.
Posted by Jeanene @ 2001 Jun 09 01:20 AM EST
Yee-hah! Am I first? Beginner's luck, I guess.
Concerning your comment on Sam's heroism, I have to say I agree with what someone else posted way back about Sam being the real hero of LOTR. It seems to me that he is the character that we see grow the most, and paradoxically is the least noticed of the four hobbits. I really admire his grit and resolve. The more I read LOTR, the more I see it as the story of Sam's part in the events that shaped Middle Earth.
Keep reading, keep posting, and thanks for inviting us all. ("I feel like there's a party in my trilogy and everyone's invited!")
Posted by Will @ 2001 Jun 09 01:23 AM EST
Debbie,
Hey! This is my first time to post on your site, and I just wanted to tell you how much I've enjoyed following you through the reading.
I love how Sam is shining at this point in the book. He began as a gardner spying on Frodo, and now he is Frodo's strength. Such great willpower has been cultived in him because of his adventures. Tolkien is a genious. :-) When I started reading book 6 I found myself not wanted to put it down, even for sleep!
I hope you have a great weekend and enjoy your trip. Bye!
Posted by Hutch @ 2001 Jun 09 02:10 AM EST
Second!!?? Couldn't you have waited four goldurned minutes, Jeanene?
Concerning Sam, I must add (if only to avoid being labeled as a gratuitous poster) that another
quality he demonstrates in impressive fashion is hope. As Red in "Shawshank Redemption" said,
"Hope is a dangerous thing..." In an environment of opressive despair, hope can drive a man (or
hobbit) mad. The alternative is to simply give up, as Frodo claims to have done. Look at the contrast between Denethor and Pippin during the Siege of Gondor: Pippin stubbornly holds to his hope and becomes an agent for good; Denethor gives up hope and becomes a tool of Sauron.
I think this contrast between hope and despair is part of what creates the tension we all feel when we read LOTR, whether we're reading it for the first or the sixteenth time. It was an overwhelming sense of despair that made my wife give up on reading The Lord of the Rings. She couldn't handle the ringwraiths' pursuit of Frodo in Book I because she felt like there could be no escape for Frodo (fulfilling prematurely Frodo's prophecy on the way to Cirith Ungol that some would say, "Shut the book now, dad; we don't want to read any more"). She identifies with Frodo and is more sensitive to the atmosphere of the story. But Sam's influence is always one of pragmatic hope: "Where there's life, there's hope (and need of vittles)." Sam even tells Frodo that he would never close the book in the darkest part.
(Fortunately for my wife, she had her own Sam to help her continue the Quest.)
Posted by Will @ 2001 Jun 09 02:19 AM EST
Hey Debs,
I'll make this short and sweet.
For you or anyone that ever wants to LIVE. Yes LIVE in in the real tolkien world. You can. Come join us at www.angband.com Here over these last 7 years we have created Tolkiens world in absolutely maginificent complexity. IT is so very fulfilling on so many levels. You are actually just a regular joe. An ordinary person in the world of tolkiens middle earth. How you live your life is entirely up to you. I cant even begin to explain it here. Its just something you have to try. If you find yourself fantisizing about what it would be like to live in arda. Well I can tell you flat out. It is incredible. IF anyone of you ever reading this need help getting immersed in our world. call up Turk StormHoof. Im what you might call The right hand man of King Theoden. In fact I rule Rohan in the stead of the king while he is gone to war in Minas Tirith. Anyway check us out. There are more than 1000 active players in our world and at least 100 of us on at any given time of the day to help you out.
Posted by Turk StormHoof @ 2001 Jun 09 03:33 AM EST
Well Debbie, didn't really expect another chapter tonight. I admire your resolve to wait to read on. Soon you may find your self saddened that there is so little left in the adventure. I find the appendices a comfort at that point.
Thanks to those who recommended "The Starlit Jewel" Galadriel's Lament is beautiful. I can just imagine "Lament for Boromir" filling the theater this December as his boat goes over the falls and the credits come on the screen.
Have a great weekend and we all look forward to your report on the NEXT chapter!
Posted by Christopher B. @ 2001 Jun 09 03:42 AM EST
My favorite image in all of LOTR is in this chapter. The passage has always moved me profoundly, so I'm just going to quote it here:
"Far above the Ephel Duath in the West the night-sky was still dim and pale. There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for awhile. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach. His song in the Tower had been defiance rather than hope; for then he was thinking of himself. Now, for a moment, his own fate, and even his master's, ceased to trouble him. He crawled back into the brambles and laid himself by Frodo's side, and putting away all fear he cast himself into a deep untroubled sleep."
Sam and the star over Mordor. This is such a beautiful moment in the story. I said back in Book 3 that I never saw trees the same way again after being introduced to the Ents. After reading the above passage, my view of stars changed forever, too.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 09 06:09 AM EST
Hi Debbie,
No, the phrase 'great wheel of fire' hasn't been used before so you didn't miss anything (well, not that at least. I'm sure that when you read the book again you'll be surprised how many things you didn't pick up the first time!)
The reason Frodo refers to the ring like that is that, because of the ring's increasing influence on him, he literally sees the ring as a great wheel of fire in his mind's eye. It blocks out everything else and robs him of hope.
Posted by Pepijn Schmitz @ 2001 Jun 09 06:10 AM EST
I wish the index had a date of last post so it would be easier to review prior chapters for current posts. Just a thought. I love your site Debs.
Posted by dave @ 2001 Jun 09 06:43 AM EST
About the ring...it kind shows how dangerous it is to let just one thing rule your mind, despite of what it is, you should never let it take control over you.
Strong passion is never a good thing, it can end in destruction and despair.
Jennix
Posted by Jenny @ 2001 Jun 09 06:56 AM EST
Debbie,
I am so greatful that you don't desert us here in The Land of Shadow. It's very generous of you to slow down your pace so that we can tag along, too. You must have a great amount of will power, though! :))
Allison
I totally agree! That is one of the core scenes in this book for me too. And one of the most spiritual. Sam gives himself up to a power greater than himself so to speak, finds comfort in eternal beauty and the fact that he and the whole Quest are such a small part of The Great Picture. And sleeps, safe as a child.
A beautiful description of faith, written by a deeply religious man. And also a description of a spiritual experience that many of us have shared, religious or not. Tolkiens words touches the core of the human mind/soul once again, from inside this dear, dear hobbit.
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 09 07:04 AM EST
just as i was opening your page today, i saw for the gazillionth time, but probably just now noticed, Deb's disclaimer that "*Warning: There are spoilers in these reports!". I know that it's supposed to mean that there are spoilers to people that never read the books, but i couldn't help noticing the prophetic irony of OUR spoilers about which Debbie couldn't have known at that point! Am i making any sense here?
On a more serious note now, Debbie, i was so delighted that you keep up with 'current affairs' at "waiting for frodo"! you're a complete Ringer now aren't you? ;]
Do you plan to continue with this strip until the movie is out? 'Cause if you do, i'll probably keep coming here to check that out all the way to December! [or probably January or February even where I live!]
btw, my personal opinion on the "posting_now_or_afterwards" thingy is that what you are doing now is nor only good for us [obviously! SELFISH ARE WE, YES PRECIOUSS!] but also good for you in a sense. as someone said once, you wouldn't like to just rush ahead, and you wouldn't like the book to end so soon. So keep the pace. Tension is good, it will make your reaction to the continuation even stronger! ;]
Alisson: i was in fact reading that part you quoted just before i decided to check on this site, and was determined to quote something from there as well! :] it's not exactly the same though, it's a signifigantly smaller part of that that just touched me:
"For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach. "
the Shadow was only a small and passing thing... isn't that the most perfect [almost-]anticlimax ever? even in the midst of chaos, confusion and darkness, Tolkien reminds us that of course things are going to turn all right, because simply enough, light is stronger than darkness... probably the most profound sentence i ever read.
have an enjoyable weekend Debbie, and keep your own pace ;]
Posted by yiorgos @ 2001 Jun 09 07:20 AM EST
Dear Debbie,
THANKS A LOT for waiting for us with reading/posting! It is very nice of you to give us your freshest feelings. I like your comments very much!!!!
And now I can't do anything better but agree with all previous posts
and add something, too:
I like Sam's sense for irony (or how to say it) in desperate situations:
"I guess what it'll be like. Where it's narrower the orcs and men will just be packed closer."
+ IMO Sam is the most remarkable character in the book. There is a big strength in him. In the beginning of the journey he just followed Frodo and did what he wanted him to do. Now he must lead them both as his master is not able to do it. He must have accepted Frodo's quest for his own. The break was when they crossed the border of Mordor - it is the power of the Ring that makes Frodo so handicapped, more than the fact he was hurt physically.
Take care of you because we all are looking forward to the next chapter. (AKA: If something bad happens to Debbie I'm going to be very upset! :o))
PS: Eh, Debbie, I read your latest Waiting for Frodo and I'm wondering if you have something agains Star Wars? I like them, you know, so shall I take something personally? (I won't, of course, it's just a joke! ;o)))))
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 09 12:17 PM EST
Allison
Good pick for a quote! Being an astronomer/astrophysicist, it's often neat to come across references to stars or heavenly objects in literature used to give one perspective, or to inspire.
Cheers,
Stefan
Posted by Stefan @ 2001 Jun 09 12:23 PM EST
Katerina: Never fear, Deb waited in line several hours to see "The Phantom Menace" on opening day, I remember it well :). And ask her to recite the Emperor's quotes from "Return of The Jedi" sometime- it's pretty impressive :). (me, I prefer quoting Yoda from "Empire Strikes Back") As a Star Wars fan myself, I love her Star Wars dude in "Waiting For Frodo". How could she resist that rivalry? It's too much fun- these two guys trying to out-geek each other. Even more I liked the appearance of the Vulcan guy today- hope he shows up again! I became a Trek geek at least four years before I first cracked open LOTR.
Stefan- Wow, that Sam and the star quote must be even more special to someone who's an astronomer. Every time I see a star peeking through the sky on a cloudy night, I think of Sam.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 09 01:05 PM EST
Yep :-)
You read the line once, and get the perspective of the average reader. Then you clue into the fact that this links your vocation into the story (though the cosmological mythos of Tolkien is quite different than that astronomers espouse), and this provides an interesting cerebral sensation.
It's a good thing, in my opinion, that Tolkien's stories don't rely on the physics of the world as we know it (or don't know it), like arenas such as Star Wars or Star Trek. Though I enjoy both of these other sagas, it's very tough to see the ever-so-real science that goes into them suddenly run into horrible gaffes from the professional astronomer viewpoint. Tolkien is nicely removed from these worries.
Stefan
Posted by Stefan @ 2001 Jun 09 02:31 PM EST
I took the star quote to imply Sam's realization that even if their quest fails the world won't "end", and this thought gives him the peace he needs to rest and prepare for the last hopeless stage of the journey - quite nice - beauty shines through to the barren wastes.
Speaking of stars, I took quite a fancy to this picture:
Posted by Christopher B. @ 2001 Jun 09 02:56 PM EST
Well, the link didn't paste - I'll try again:
http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/PR/2001/16/content/0116y.jpg
http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/PR/2001/16/content/0116y.jpg
Posted by Christopher B. @ 2001 Jun 09 03:02 PM EST
Wow.... I have great respect for you being capable of putting the book down for the cause of making these reports... I personally read Book VI in one go, reading on an entire night, when I read LOTR for the first time, just because I couldn't put the book down...
About Sam being the gretaer hero between Frodo and Sam, I don't think I fully agree. I think Frodo's role is sometimes underestimated. He goes through a tremendous self-sacrifice throughout the book. Sam does so too, but mostly out of love for his master. Frodo does it, because he knows that if he won't do it, no one will.
Posted by Martijn @ 2001 Jun 09 03:33 PM EST
Wow.... I have great respect for you being capable of putting the book down for the cause of making these reports... I personally read Book VI in one go, reading on an entire night, when I read LOTR for the first time, just because I couldn't put the book down...
About Sam being the gretaer hero between Frodo and Sam, I don't think I fully agree. I think Frodo's role is sometimes underestimated. He goes through a tremendous self-sacrifice throughout the book. Sam does so too, but mostly out of love for his master. Frodo does it, because he knows that if he won't do it, no one will.
Posted by Martijn @ 2001 Jun 09 03:33 PM EST
Christopher -
Looks like the Eye, eh?
Btw - 0116y.jpg might be difficult for some browsers to render (my coughed at it). 0116w.jpg is smaller.
Posted by Stefan @ 2001 Jun 09 03:47 PM EST
I agree with you, Martijn. I think it's easy to under-estimate Frodo's role at this stage of the story, because the story is being told through Sam's eyes mostly and he's the more clear-minded of the two, but they are both extraordinary on this march towards Mount Doom. Interesting how often they both make reference to how there's no hope left and they'll likely never make it to the mountain (especially Frodo), and yet step by step they continue the quest, anyway. Just a tremendous strength of will.
Stefan- There's something else I like about the interaction in this journal. From now on whenever I pick up LOTR and read the Sam and the star passage I'll remember the astronomer from these boards who has even more reason to love that passage than I do :).
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 09 04:17 PM EST
Stefan,
you are astronomer??? Great! I love astronomy, I'm something like astronomer-dilettante :o) Well, there's more of the dilettante in me then astronomer :o)
Beautiful picture! I like the Horse Head nebula, here:
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0104/horsehead_hubblenoao_big.jpg
Everytime there is something about stars in LotR I start to think what could it be - I imagine the same sky as here (in northern nemisphere) and think of what season we have in Middle Earth, what time it is and try to remember all the constellations... I think sometimes it really fits to real nightsky.
Well, I'm even so crazy that I check Tolkien's Moon phases and count the days, if he's right ;o))) (he always is :o)))))
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 09 04:47 PM EST
Katerina -
Cool pic! It would've been fun had Tolkien came up with constellations, too. Alas, they would have changed with the movement of the stars over 8,000 years, but the brighter stars would still be there.
Posted by Stefan @ 2001 Jun 09 06:31 PM EST
I have often thought that being forced to march with the orcs, as horrible as it was, was a good thing. They may not have been ableto get as far as they did otherwise.
Heather
Posted by Heather @ 2001 Jun 09 09:10 PM EST
heather: i totally agree
Posted by sarah @ 2001 Jun 09 10:02 PM EST
Tolkien does in fact mention Middle Earth constellations and identifies them with our known constellations. From 'Three is Company' FOTR BK 1, I quote 'Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists red Borgil rose glowing like a jewel of fire. Then by some shift of airs all the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he climbed over the rim of the world, the Swordsman of the Sky, Menelvagar with his shining belt...' From this, Menelvagar is clearly identifiable as Orion. Elsewhere (I do not remember the exact reference) he identifies a constellation called The Wain that corresponds to the Big Dipper.
Posted by Brian @ 2001 Jun 10 01:23 AM EST
I found another constellation reference in FOTR in Bk 1 'Strider', end of chapter: 'Peering out, Frodo saw that the night was still clear. The Sickle [The Hobbit's name for the Plough or Great Bear, footnoted] was swinging bright above the shoulders of Bree-hill.' Appendix E on pronuciation gives several synonyms for Orion: Telumehtar is given as one Quenya name, and Menelmacar is given as the Quenya translation of Sindarin Menelvagar mentioned in my earlier post. See the following:
http://www.geocities.com/varda_valar/encycfrms.htm
and click on Objects, Stars and Constellations for detail on constellations from the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales etc.
Posted by Brian @ 2001 Jun 10 01:51 AM EST
This ones for Allison and any other Tolkien Music lovers.
If you haven't already seen it their is a fantastic site at
http://www.vikings.lv/%7Ewitchcraft/jrrt/Index.htm
which lists all references to music with a Tolkien influence that the site organisers have been able to find on the web. It is updated regularly, the last time being 1 June 2001
Jeez, it certainly has taken me a long time to work my way through all the very interesting postings on this site and end up here, waiting anxiously for Deb's next entry, probably nearly as long as it took me to read LoTR the first time back in 1962.
Ponto Loamsdown of Deephallow
(aka Geoff in a cold, wintery Perth on the west coast of Australia)
Posted by Geoff @ 2001 Jun 10 04:30 AM EST
Somehow the above address didn't list properly, try this one
http://www.vikings.lv/%7Ewitchcraft/jrrt/index.htm
Ponto Loamsdown
Posted by Geoff @ 2001 Jun 10 04:36 AM EST
Debbie, forgive me for posting this here, but I can't find a link on the "Waiting for Frodo" page. I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoy your strips. The last one was particularly funny with the Trekkie leaning into the picture, complete with quirked eyebrow. :)
Back on topic: I love these posts of yours. I've read LotR so many times in the last 20 years that it's impossible to remember what I thought the first time around. It's so much fun to relive that time vicariously through you. :)
Posted by Sandy @ 2001 Jun 10 06:04 AM EST
It's interesting, Debbie, that you picked up on the first reading that the story is told from the point of view of the hobbits; we generally do not know any other characters' thoughts. I wrote an essay on just this topic several years ago. I believe I found less than a dozen instances in the story where a hobbit could not have known something.
Also, regarding the women in LOTR. I think women are generally portrayed as providing an essential strength to those around them. Galadriel was mighty indeed, but her power was not to raise armies and cast spells of destruction. I think her greatest power was of providing hope, and "assistance unlooked for." Then again, there are also Eowyn's. :)
Posted by Christopher @ 2001 Jun 10 06:13 AM EST
Good snag, Brian.
I guess I missed the constellations for the stars. :-)
Posted by Stefan @ 2001 Jun 10 06:20 AM EST
debbie, this is the first time i've been to your page. i think it's wonderful that you're sharing with everyone your first experience reading these books all the way through. i can't remember the first time i read them, but i remember my mom reading 'the hobbit' to me before i could read on my own. if you think the books are great now, they only get better. :) the next time you read them, you'll pick up and understand so much more. and the same thing will happen every time you pick them up. it's incredible, tolkien was such a genius. i've lost count of how many times i've read LotR, and i still notice things in there i've never caught before.
thank you, again, for sharing with us!! i'll be coming back here again regularly. farewell!
Posted by Satarina @ 2001 Jun 10 06:30 AM EST
Christopher: Galadriel's greatest power being to give hope. So true. Even in this chapter, in the depths of Mordor, Sam makes reference to Galadriel twice and the light and water images he associates with her.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 10 06:32 AM EST
Allison,
I think I may have entered a spoiler in book IV chapter 9 about Shelob's lair. Sorry :-(
Posted by dave @ 2001 Jun 10 08:53 AM EST
I can remember the first time I read LOTR. It was just after giving birth to my son. The book was always in one hand and my baby in the other. I can remember him reading the book just about as soon as he was old enough to read it and understand it. He has since grown into a huge Tolkien fan and in fact, has somehow ended up with my original copies of the books. BTW, his favorite character is Sam.
The beauty of the web is that now, people can do things like read LOTR and have people from all over the world to share their thoughts and insights.
Posted by Lila Knotwise of Whitfurrows @ 2001 Jun 10 09:27 AM EST
Brian:
You are right, I remeber it. Red Borgil could be Aldeberan and Netted Stars could be Pleiades.
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 10 09:33 AM EST
dave: Yup, you're probably just a day or three premature with that spoiler and it's unlikely Deb will go back to read the Book 4 comments again before getting to that part of Book 6, but we'll stick with better safe than sorry. Comment erased.
It's a good question, though :). You could likely re-post it after Chapter 4.
Posted by Allison: @ 2001 Jun 10 09:44 AM EST
Galadriel is the last leader of the Noldor that went into exile and lived in the light of the two trees. She has the power to defy Sauron.
"But do not think that only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlorien maintained and defended against its Enemy...... I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!"
Who can say what Galadriel's greatest power is? Surely as we know so little it can only be speculation.
Posted by Alan C @ 2001 Jun 10 12:35 PM EST
Having invested a lot of attention now to Sam in the discussion after the last chapter, I find myself thinking a lot about Frodo. As maybe do some of you? I think of Allisons remark above, and Daves late comment a chapter back.
What drives Frodo? Why is he the one who is chosen for this mission? And what is it in him that makes him accept it, and endure this long under a burden and resist a temptation that none of the other Great Powers beleive that they could handle?
You can explain that he, too, acts out of love. Love for the Shire first, and later love for the whole Middle Earth and the good things and people within it. And then he also goes on because he believes that noone else can. That belief is confirmed by the Mighty that he meets on the journey. Elrond, Gandalf, Galadriel, Aragorn, for instance.
It is "his destiny" (to paraphrase Mr. Vader...). Even if he has all the time the free will to decline it, he accepts his role in the big scheme. He decides to sacrifice himself at Parth Galen. After that, he has no hope for his individual self. And, along with The Ring, he now also carries the additional burden of knowing that he is everyone elses hope.
It is certainly too much for anyone to carry!! Where does he get his strength? How does he manage that? Not without help, that is obvious. But still, there is such a strong will and conviction in him! That is somewhat of a mystery, I think. One of the things that makes these books so deeply moving, every time you read them.
There's a lot more to be said about Frodo, but it'll have to wait, for fear of spoilers. :-) And I've rambled on too long, anyway... :-)
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 10 03:19 PM EST
I think this is probably the darkest chapter in the whole story. Although it contains that one hopeful moment where Sam sees the star, I remember how I dreaded each step of their northward march, a march that was taking them no closer to their goal, with their food running out and being tracked by the Orcs and Gollum.
I applaud you Debbie for having the forbearance to wait for the next chapter until you can post your comments. I hope you find the wait worthwhile.
David
Posted by David @ 2001 Jun 10 07:41 PM EST
Katarina: Sure, let's give Frodo his due. (Oops, this post got a bit long...)
I've found myself thinking about Frodo a great deal as Deb reads through LOTR, because it was another of my pre-conceived notions that was challenged early in the journey. Deb didn't take to Frodo right away, she was downright scornful of him in Book 2, Chapter 1 :). "Brave, but dull." she'll call him a bit later than that. In fact, it was really only in late Book 4 that she seemed to finally warm to him. That caught me off-guard because I've always identified with Frodo right from the early pages of the story, so I found myself trying to figure out why.
First thing I noticed as I travelled through Fellowship this time is that, like Merry, Frodo isn't as accessible to the reader as Sam and Pippin at first glance. Really, it's almost impossible not to love Sam and Pippin right from the early pages of the story because their characters are written in broader strokes, with more humour and they're more outspoken, too. Frodo and Merry are subtler characters, harder to get to know, their characters don't really open up until the second half of LOTR. I think, maybe, they are characters easier to identify with in the second or third time through the books.
So, why then, despite that, did I take to Frodo right away?
Frodo gets accused a lot of being too serious. I suppose it's an ingrained part of his character, though it's hard to tell at times if his seriousness springs from being the Ringbearer or if he might have been fated to become the Ringbearer because, for a hobbit especially, he is more serious and contemplative than most (you just can't see the fates giving the Ring to Pippin :)). Either way, Frodo's dedication to the quest is awesome. He tries twice to give the Ring to people he thinks are more worthy than him, but once he accepts his role he's unstoppable. That was really brought home to me in Book 4, Chapter 3 when Frodo is quite prepared to march by himself right through the front gates of Mordor because he's been commanded to complete his quest. Holy, and people thought Sam was obsessive at the beginning of Book 6. Anyway, Frodo's dedication and strength of will is a force of nature.
And I like Frodo because he's a gentle soul. All the hobbits are, but Frodo especially. He's quiet and introspective, thinks and feels deeply and doesn't always express what he's feeling. He's much like Merry that way. He's much like -me- that way :). He's selfless to a fault (to the exasperation of those who care about him), reluctant to take his friends into danger if he can possibly go alone, looks for no glory or reward from completing his task. The mercy and kindness he shows Smeagol goes beyond the bonds of reason- it's so much easier to identify with Sam's feelings in those Book 4 scenes :). I could say more on this topic, but I can't yet.
I've always loved Frodo, and I agree with Katarina that there will be more to say about him later.
Hmmm, typing about Frodo or Sam always makes me long-winded...
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 10 08:44 PM EST
[Silmarillion spoiler warning again:]
Yes, I also found Sam's vision of the star over the mountains in the west very moving. I've wondered if the star Sam saw was actually Earendil, specifically the sole remaining Silmaril carried into the heavens by Earendil. If so, it would be especially poignant that Sam saw this last remnant of the unspoiled light of Valinor, which was carried into the heavens to keep it beyond the reach of Morgoth and his servants and to be a beacon of hope to the world. [I got a little frisson just typing that.]
(Even Galadriel's phial, powerful as it was, was just the reflected light of Earendil captured in her pool.)
Posted by Olorin @ 2001 Jun 10 09:21 PM EST
Allison,
Thank you for posting this about Frodo. I'm glad there is someone who thinks the same as I do and who is able to write it down better then me :o))) Your description is exact. I'm glad that you mentioned the similarity between Frodo and Merry. I liked Frodo from the very beginning of the story but it was easy for me, he is the main character. With Merry it was difficult for me to remember him at all. When I started to read the book for the second time I was almost surprised that there is such character. He was overshadowed by Pippin and when he started to be more visible in the second part of the story, I started to read quickly and eagerly and again I didn't memorize it as much as the first part. After such experience I decided to read the book slowly, to concentrate and enjoy every word (there was no reason for hurry anyway because I knew the ending :o). After that I finally started to notice Merry much more. Now I think that the similarity between Frodo and Merry is very obvious. Maybe Sam would be a good Ringbearer but IMHO Merry would be a better one (If there is no Frodo, of course :o)
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 11 04:03 AM EST
Olorin, I think you may have something! As many have said before, you get something new every time you read it. I hadn't even picked up much on the star (though most had, apparently).
I don't think Merry could have stood the power of the Ring. At Weathertop, when the Nazgul attacked Strider and the four hobbits, only Sam stood above Frodo (if I remember aright; correct me if I am wrong). Strider lept forward with flaming brands. Merry and Pippin crouched in fear.
By the way, as to the wellspring of Sam's strength, I think his love for Frodo is one source, but not the source, if you take my meaning. I think his strength comes from...well, I best not say until later, perhaps even the end of the story. While judging personality from text is difficult, I think Allison may suspect to what I am referring.
Posted by Christopher @ 2001 Jun 11 08:28 AM EST
Yup, I think I know, Christopher :). Interesting, I've been trying to write a song inspired by this chapter for a couple of weeks now, the whole Sam and the star thing especially, but as I found myself exploring Sam's strength and devotion further in the lyrics I realized that I would not be able to share the song with Debbie even after she read this chapter. If I'm lucky enough to complete a lyric that I'm happy with, I'll only be able to sing it to her later in the book or once the book is done for the very reasons that I think you're alluding to above.
As for giving Merry the Ring, well, as I said several chapters back, it's hard enough watching Frodo bear the Ring at this point. I wouldn't wish the Ring on any character I like! As for Merry's strength of character, though, when he needs it to defend Eowyn, it's there. He grows a great deal from Weathertop to the Pelennor Fields. I think that's the defining moment for Merry's character in the saga.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 11 09:43 AM EST
Great comments to read on a Monday morning. Thanks to everybody.
I like the Idea of the star being the Silmaril on the brow of Earendil. I have yet to re-read LOTR since reading The Silmarillion and The book of Lost Tales etc. So this is a whole new experience for me. I love making the references to the pre-history of Middle Earth. The star that Sam sees seams to have a different significance to everybody yet almost everybody here seams to have been moved by it. Mr. Tolkien really did somthing akin to Elf magic.
P.S. Is anyone secretly wondering if Christopher is Christopher Tolkien?
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 11 10:52 AM EST
Mike,
That thought had crossed my mind but I was too afraid to ask... surely not??? Now HE would be a good preson to go through Sil with
Posted by Andy @ 2001 Jun 11 11:12 AM EST
I also think...surely not. That would be quite a treat for us though....wouldn't it?
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 11 11:52 AM EST
You never know who might be lurking about here, but I doubt they would use their real first name if it were someone important like that. Still, one never knows.
Posted by Fatty Lumpkin @ 2001 Jun 11 12:08 PM EST
Allison, the description of Frodo you made in your previous comment is so very beautiful! I had tears in my eyes reading it. I hope you do a lot of writing, besides being a schoolteacher. :-)
Anyway, I read (in Harry Aint-It-Cool-News diary from the filming set) that in the movies, the burden of The Ring on Frodo will be manifested physically. Frodo will have a nasty looking wound around his neck. It's a good example of what we can expect from the movies: visual presentation of many aspects that in the book are psychological events, thoughts and feelings. I'm really looking forward to see how they tell this story visually, more an more every day! For instance, how will that moment with Sam and the star come out? Oh, I can hardly wait. :-)
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 11 12:39 PM EST
I had same thought about Sam's star after I read the Silmarillion when it first came out. What a wonderful scene! And Sam's song is a real tear-jerker. I sing it to Star of the County Down. (Any good hymnal has a metrical index of tunes you can use to find music to fit most lyrics.)
I've been thinking as I read through this site about what it is that keeps me coming back again and again to LoTR. And I realize that it's not any of the characters, even though I fell in love with Aragorn and Faramir long ago, and still find my heart aching for Frodo. The real draw for me, and the thing that separates this from other fantasy for me, is the scenery, the 'up hill and down dale' stuff that Deb complained about back in Book I. I think my lifelong love of hiking has a lot to do with this story. I was up in Rocky Mountain National Park yesterday (we go up every weekend) on the Fern Lake trail, with its flowers and aspen groves, and I thought, as I always do, that it looked like Ithilien. And the week before, we were on the tundra on Trail Ridge, looking down into Forest Canyon, with its shining waterfalls falling hundreds of feet into pine forests far below, and I thought it looked like Rivendell. I started re-reading LoTR for about the 21st time two weeks ago, after finding this site. I'm only up to Moria, because I'm busy grading finals, and because I'm taking my time. I used to read the whole thing in a week, but I decided to savor it this time, since I know how it's going to come out :-) I'm loving the rich descriptions so much. And despite the shivery beauty of scenes like Sam's star in Mordor and the horns of Rohan blowing, I still love Book I the best, I think, with the lights of Woodhall shining through the trees. I'm really excited and curious to see what the movie scenery will look like. (I think some of my mental images were shaped long ago by the Hildebrandt calendars.)
I also wanted to mention that I watched the Rankin-Bass version of the Return of the King this weekend. I've seen it before. It has some serious problems, of course, but I still had to get out my hankie at the end. And watching the heart-wrenching scenes of Sam and Frodo in Mordor, I realized how painful it's going to be to watch Elijah Wood in those scenes, with his sweet face. I'll need a whole pocketful of hankies.
Thanks again, Deb, for taking us along on this wonderful journey.
Posted by Karen @ 2001 Jun 11 01:11 PM EST
Karen,
That's a new prespective to this whole weblog....the geography being your favorite part. People have liked parts here and there (Ithilien for example) but I like your comment. Mostly we have be focused on the characters (nothing wrong with that) but I think that the vivid descriptions of scenery through out the story is what really draws the reader into Middle Earth. Especially with the contrast of not describing things like Orcs and Balrogs. As a reader we get to visualize the back drop and then put the characters there as we see them.
I live a few hours away from Banff & Jasper National Parks, in Alberta, and I love going to the mountains for the scenery. I have often thought that the Rocky Mountains would make a perfect Misty Mountains.
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 11 02:05 PM EST
Christopher Tolkien travels under an assumed name when in the UK, and is said to have wild boar around his house to deter fans of his father. That's what happens if you do something popular, even more so than this site.
Christopher wouldn't post under his own name.
Posted by Robert @ 2001 Jun 11 02:37 PM EST
WHOO! Go, Sam! :D
I do so envy you for reading these books for the first time. (Yeah, there's nothing like the first time.) I think Christopher Beagle once said something to the effect of "I envy those who haven't read the Lord of the Rings, and those who have yet to."
I think it has something to do with the ache and yearn for beauty and fantasy-- and the anticipation... the possiblities.
Thank you for posting your thoughts and insights about this very LOONG very challenging work. It allowed me to re-live a bit of the feelings I experienced when I first read the books. At times I was laughing and nodding, agreeing with everything you said, re-living the frustration at the exposition and battles, sometimes just quiet and sad, and a little thoughtful.
Don't let the meanie fanatics get to you! They're just so impatient, I guess. Kinda pushy. Kinda preachy, too. But it's out of love you know.
Much love,
Min
Posted by Min Rho @ 2001 Jun 11 03:28 PM EST
Karen,
That's strange but every time someone posts something I have to agree with it :o) I love hiking and like to imagine I'm in Middle Earth. Now it is grass on the plains of Rohan that fascinates me. When I see tall grass somewhere I imagine an ocean of it all around me and feel like being in the story.
Allison + Christopher/concerning Sam's strength:
I'm wondering what are you talking about???? I must admit I'm lost and I have no idea what you mean. Can you help me without making a spoiler? :o)))
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 11 03:31 PM EST
Katerina: I can't think of any way to let you know what Christopher and I are talking about without giving away too much. When I get home tonight I'll drop you an e-mail and explain :).
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 11 03:40 PM EST
Just a somewhat off-topic aside. The second time I read LotR, I was struck by ann array of weird coincidences between certain names and words from Toliken's universe and names of people in my life, or in real life. For instance, I have a (female) Persian friend named Nazgol and two of my best friends are nicknamed Oin and Ferny. This nicknames were acquired/bestowed before any of us had read the books and are based on their real, given names. Obviously just coincidences, but here's the strangest of them all: I can't remember exactly where (although I suppose in the prologue to LotR), Tolkien makes mention of a historical hobbit by the name of Rudigar Bolger. Well, anyone familiar with the "New" German cinema will know that the star of several of Wim Wenders' early films in the 60's and 70's, most notably "Kings of the Road" ("Im Lauf der Zeit" in German, I think), is named Rüdiger Vogler!!! This MUST, also, be a coincidence, but with such unusual names, it is really striking. Has anyone else noticed this or any others? Does anyone have any evidence to support the theory that they might not be coincidences?
Posted by Sancho Bolger @ 2001 Jun 11 03:44 PM EST
Re: Sam as "hero"
I actually took a class in fantasy literature in college where the professor made the claim that Sam was actually the "hero" of the LOTR. But I think that when he (and others) make that claim, they don't mean hero in the save the day sort of sense. There are several arguments for this (many of which I can't go into until Debbie has finished reading). One is this: If LOTR is the story of the destruction of the Ring of Power, then one can make the argument that this tale is told mostly from Sam's point of view. If you notice, since the breaking of the Fellowship way back in Book III, we see fewer and fewer introspectives into what Frodo is thinking. The tale of the trip to Mordor is told almost exclusively from Sam's point of view, with his thoughts and feelings being told most often. It is rare that we get Frodo's perspective on things and we are left to wonder, much like Sam does, the effects of the Ring on Frodo's psyche (other than the ones that Sam can see) or the source and reasoning of his mercy toward Gollum. I imagine that it's mostly because, as the Ring acts on Frodo, he becomes less hobbit-like and more like the "wise ones" (inaccesible, remote, caught up in the larger picture). Sam is the one that remains most hobbitlike (most human even) throughout and so his character becomes the point of view that an audience can most easily relate too. So I don't think it's an attempt to diminish Frodo's role in the tale at all. It's a statement based largely on a structural point of view, that Sam is the one telling the story of the destruction of the ring which makes him the main character or the "hero". There are others arguements I've heard to make the case, some more convincing, some less, but they can't be discussed until after the very last chapter...sigh, the anticipation.
Just thought I'd toss that out there for the sake of discussion...you can take it as you will.
Posted by Sericite @ 2001 Jun 11 03:52 PM EST
I keep breaking out in shivers and cold sweats. My hands keep plucking the air as if reaching for invisible book pages. I wonder what's wrong with me...
Posted by Pepijn Schmitz @ 2001 Jun 11 04:06 PM EST
Karen,
I agree with your perspective about the importance of the scenery and landscape the we encounter throughout the books. Whenever I go hiking or camping, I am always looking for bits and pieces of Middle Earth that have survived into this age. And those places always become favorite spots to return to.
Posted by Tom @ 2001 Jun 11 04:45 PM EST
AAAUGHH!
Dammit, Debbie!
I need another post! I am so suffering from withdrawal. I can't concentrate on work, I can't find anything else to read on the internet & I've already gone back and re-read all of your other entries.
Pleeeeeze hurry up and post again. Time is moving so slowly.
tick...tock...tick...tock....
Posted by Dan @ 2001 Jun 11 04:59 PM EST
Debbie,
I just discovered your LOTR journal for the first time and have really enjoyed reading through it. It has been many years since my mother first read the books to me, and I have read them over so many times since then that I barely remember what it was like to not know what is coming next.
I'm also delighted that you enjoy the character of Sam so much. As a child, I liked Merry and Legolas the best, but as an adult I have come to appreciate Sam. Whenever I re-read the books, I feel a bit resentful about the disparity between how the other characters treat Frodo and how they treat Sam.
I can't wait to read your comments on the next, very exciting chapters.
--Amanda
Posted by Amanda @ 2001 Jun 11 05:20 PM EST
Going back a few chapters...to the Eowyn debate.
The newest poll on TORN asks "Which character do you think is the most valiant in battle?"
It has only just started but Eowyn is way out in the lead. I'm sure you (us) Eowyn fans will appreciate that. (No doubt some of us here had a hand in that lead)
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 11 05:24 PM EST
Concerning the poll: Yess, we likes Eowyn, we voted for her, yes we did.
Concerning Sam: We likes Sam, yes, nice hobbitis, brave hobbitis, bold he is, and strong, yes, no matter what anyone else says, we likes him, yes, my precious!
Concerning Debbie being away: We hates it, yes, we thinks it very nasty, yes, we needs another post! It gnaws us, yes, takes up all our time, yes, so that we have nothing to do now, no. Very nasty, yes, very nasty!
Come back soon, Debbie!!
-- Ruby Foxburr of Loamsdown
Posted by E. Gamgee @ 2001 Jun 11 05:39 PM EST
I miss you Debbie. I've been treating each chapter as a separate discussion board, and that helps. It takes time to check all the prior chapters out.
Like Karen and Katerina I like to hike and imagine places as parts of Middle Earth. We have a small hill which is conical shaped and stands alone. To me it is the Lonely Mountain. I've already mentioned a waterfall with huge trees with gold leaves reminding me of Lothlorien. There are places with weird stone formations I imagine might me the Trolls! And what Ent could not live in a place like Redwoods or Sequoia!
Posted by dave @ 2001 Jun 11 06:53 PM EST
Yes, of course I voted for Éowyn, my fave gal! She deserves it too.
Posted by talierin @ 2001 Jun 11 09:09 PM EST
Dan and E. Gamgee,
My sentiments exactly! Debbie! Come back soon! I need another "fix"!
Posted by Sirelle @ 2001 Jun 11 09:12 PM EST
The geographical comments posted above make me think that Middle Earth is found in all the places in the world that make us sigh at the beauty and relax and think, "Aren't I lucky to be here!".
At least the that's the way I feel. And a lot of the places I felt were just like M.E. are just the places P.J. has used.
Re Sam as Hero.
Maybe Sam is so accessible because he feels the same protective love for Frodo as we feel about our children or parents or siblings. Frodo seems a bit more rarified, a little remote from us.
Hurry up and get back Deb, I need another fix! (:-(
Posted by Silmarien @ 2001 Jun 12 12:06 AM EST
Once again I'm too late on this message board. As I mentioned in the previous chapter comments, Frodo and Sam make up one ring-bearer, one who's more rational, one who's more emotional and impulsive. Allison, your thoughts on how you feel about Frodo were so right-on, I actually had a lump in my throat (if you knew me you'd realize how hard this is to cause). I think Sam and Frodo have elements of everyone's character and personality and whoever you think is your favorite or "the hero" is probably the most reflective of your own personality, IMHO. I must say I liked Frodo from the start.
One more thing, while I'm in a rambling mood. I'm suprised noone's mentioned the connection between Led Zeppelin (the greatest band of all time, in my non-humble opinion) and Middle Earth/LOTR. Maybe it's because it's just way too obvious and has already been discussed to death? Comments anyone? There's a website called "Stairway to Middle Earth" (not sure of address) that illustrates the connection very well, and validated what I had been harping on for years.
Posted by Roland @ 2001 Jun 12 12:33 AM EST
I'm going to hit a few more of these comments tomorrow but tonight I find myself thinking about Roland's question about how whether you like Sam or Frodo best reflects your personality. If made to choose I'd go with Sam, but then I'd feel badly for not choosing Frodo :). Which makes me realize that who I like best is Sam -and- Frodo or more specifically, the relationship between the two of them. It feeds back into the issue of the two parts of the whole, how neither could have survived in Mordor this long without the other, how both often come to reflect the best qualities of the other when the situation calls for it (there's an extraordinary example of that in the next chapter). So, if asked who my favorite character is in LOTR, I'm always ultimately going to be torn and then I'm always going to hedge my bets by saying Frodo and Sam together.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 12 01:44 AM EST
you can count another vote for Eowyn. oh, and she's currently first in the poll with 30.8%! gods i love that woman!
Posted by yiorgos @ 2001 Jun 12 02:07 AM EST
This posts start to look like real love-letters: "Debbie, I miss you so much...!"
LOL! :oD
Big Mike:
You are right, my vote belonged to Eowyn! All characters were brave but she faced the most dreadful enemy that was at hand. I could almost feel the terror that was spread all around the Witch King, uh, terrible :o#
Allison: THANK YOU ;o)
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 12 03:10 AM EST
Wow; quite a few posts today! I think sometimes we're busier when Debbie doesn't post (or at least get off on wilder tangents). Can't you just picture us all in the Prancing Pony, having loud and boisterous discussions over ale?!
Lots of random responses tonight:
Karen: loved your description of the importance of landscape. Since moving to California and hiking in the Sierra Nevadas, they've been the Misty Mountains for me, and I could definitely see Donner Pass as the High Pass. I'd never really had anything to relate those scenes to before; the mountains on the East Coast are much too weathered down. (I wonder if the Ered Luin look like the Blue Ridge Mountains - that would be quite appropriate. They seem the right elevation, from what little we know.)
Robert: I agree that Christopher Tolkien wouldn't post under his own name. He'd probably use something like "Robert".
Roland: The Led Zeppelin site is http://www.auburn.edu/~speedhe/ .
Regarding Sam as the hero, we'll certainly have much fuller discussions of this once we're at the end of the book, but I can quote something now that Tolkien wrote in one of his letters (number 93 in _Letters by JRR Tolkien_) that made me rethink my first impressions: "Certainly Sam is the most closely drawn character, the successor to Bilbo of the first book, the genuine hobbit. Frodo is not so interesting, because he has to be highminded, and has (as it were) a vocation." Definitely supporting Silmarien's description of Frodo as "more rarified"!
Up until now, my favorite Hobbit has been Frodo, probably because he was the most "Elvish" of the hobbits. (I even have my own "crackpot theory" as to why that might be.) After all these discussions, though, I'll definitely pay more attention to Sam.... I'm really glad I found these discussions - I'm going to get a lot more out of my next re-reading! :-)
Posted by Olorin @ 2001 Jun 12 04:00 AM EST
Ronald
I agree with Allison, it's almost impossible to choose between Sam and Frodo. Their RELATION is at the center of this book. It's the heart of the epic, so to speak.
But it might say someting about my personality (?) that I loved Frodo for many years before I fell for Sam. There's so much sadness, pain and sacrifice about Frodo, and I've always been fascinated by those kind of characters. I like having my heart broken - in books and films, that is.
I've come closer to Sam on the last few rereads. Certainly a lot of pain in his story too... and a lot of fun and joy. But it took some time for me to grow fond of other traits - his servility, his jelousy with Gollum etc. Now I really love him too, just as much as Frodo! And he is one of the true heros in the book.
I also like this quote from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (letter nr 246, 1963): "Sam is meant to be lovable and laughable. Some readers he irritates and even infuriates. I can well understand it. All hobbits at times affect me in the same way, though I remain very fond of them. But Sam can be very 'trying'. He is a more representative hobbit than any others that we have to see much of..."
Tolkien obviously likes Sam very much, but is not unaware of his faults. Sam didn't fully understand Frodos motives, Tolkien writes, and he didn't understand what went on between Frodo and Gollum. "For me perhaps the most tragic moment of the Tale comes when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect [just before entering the tunnel to Shelobs lair]. 'Nothing, nothing', said Gollum softly. 'Nice master!' His repentance is blighted and all Frodo's pity is (in a sense) wasted." But then, Tolkien reasons, Sam could hardly have acted differently, due to "the logic of the story".
My oh my, it IS difficult to write short posts about those two hobbits! :)))))
Debbie, are you leaving us alone here on purpose? So that we will "communitize" on our own? :)))
And Olorin, what do you mean? This IS The Prancing Pony! :)))))
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 12 06:22 AM EST
Sorry, I meant Roland, not Ronald... :)))
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 12 06:42 AM EST
valiant - adjective
1. courageous: brave and steadfast
2. done courageously: characterised by or performed with bravery but often ending in failure
I also was drawn to voting for Eowyn for many reasons but in the end I had to vote for another not listed. There is one missing from the options whose attempts to make amends could be described as nothing other than valiant. Even fulfilling the ultimate act of dying valiantly, tragically, without companionship, knowing his failure was complete failure was complete. He had failed his friends, family and allies, his actions possibly viewed by all as betrayal. He never new forgiveness, not did he get the opportunity to ask it of those he needed it most.
For the few who don’t know of whom I speak, his name was Boromir, may he rest in peace.
Posted by Annatar The Fair @ 2001 Jun 12 07:12 AM EST
valiant - adjective
1. courageous: brave and steadfast
2. done courageously: characterised by or performed with bravery but often ending in failure
I also was drawn to voting for Eowyn for many reasons but in the end I had to vote for another not listed. There is one missing from the options whose attempts to make amends could be described as nothing other than valiant. Even fulfilling the ultimate act of dying valiantly, tragically, without companionship, knowing his failure was complete. He had failed his friends, family and allies, his actions possibly viewed by all as betrayal. He never new forgiveness, nor did he get the opportunity to ask it of those he needed it most.
For the few who don’t know of whom I speak, his name was Boromir, may he rest in peace.
(This is the edited version, hopefully without spelling errors and repetitions.)
Posted by Annatar The Fair @ 2001 Jun 12 07:17 AM EST
One quick comment before I head off to work. Keep in mind, everyone, the deal Deb made for us in Book 6 is that she would post -when she could-. She's presently at a cottage where one phone line is shared by several cottages, so it's extremely difficult to get on-line time and even when you do if someone picks up the phone you lose all the computer stuff you're doing. She'll get back to us when she gets the chance. I'm just glad she plans to continue to post reports whenever they come. In the meantime, enjoy the ride :). Deb will be through LOTR before we know it and this whole experience will be done. I'm finding I'm really enjoying these hiatuses where we all just talk amongst ourselves and get to know each other a bit better. Grab a mug and let the conversation continue :).
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 12 07:30 AM EST
Allsion, you're right as usual. This journey will be over, oh too soon. But no harm in letting Debbie know that we miss her, right? Maybe she misses us too, heh? :))) And I'm sure she misses Sam and Frodo.
Meanwhile, I'm becoming absorbed in studies of J.R.R. Tolkiens Letters and Tom Shippey's Tolkien: Author of the century. Real goldmines, both of them. As many of you probably knew.
Shippey makes an interesting point about the hobbits. They are anachronisms in Middle Earth, he explains. They are very English and modern in many ways, smoking tobacco and eating potatoes etc. When placing them in the ancient world of wizards, elves and old Norse heroic myths, Tolkien gives us more a contemporary "people" that we can identify with. Thus they serve the purpose of making accessible the old myths and sagas that Tolkien dedicated his professional life to. The hobbits are the bridge between the ancient world and the modern one, Shippey writes. Interesting analysis, I think! :)
Cheers! :))))
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 12 08:20 AM EST
Annatar,
You are so right. Boromir WAS a hero, even if a flawed hero. He was responsible for Frodo's decision. Perhaps Frodo wouldn't have decided to go off by himself over the river if Boromir hadn't frightened him and then everything would have failed, so even his betrayal served a purpose. He then gave his life trying to protect the others never knowing how important his actions were.
Truly a tragic figure.
Posted by Silmarien @ 2001 Jun 12 08:33 AM EST
Annatar,
beautifully written. Boromir is one of my favorite. I only want to assure you, that Aragorn forgave him :o). I'ts a pity that Frodo could not be there it that moment :o(
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 12 08:37 AM EST
On thinking it over, I can't agree that Eowyn is really heroic. She states more than once that she wants death. Surely she was just trying to commit suicide in the most spectacular fashion she could.
Posted by Silmarien @ 2001 Jun 12 09:06 AM EST
Thanks for the praise Katerina.
I know if I were Boromir dying in that situation I'd want above all others Faramir by my side for many reasons including solace, forgiveness and repentance. It would be an interesting poll to see who YOU would have as your single companion as you died if you were Boromir.
Would you seek Frodo’s forgiveness
Gandalf’s forgiveness and reassurance
Denethor’s doting love and understanding
Faramir
Aragorn
Would you want to look Sauron in The Eye
The head of Minas Tirith’s House Of Healing
Or someone else altogether
Posted by Annatar The Fair @ 2001 Jun 12 09:16 AM EST
Annatar,
Boromir was totally focused on Gondor's plight. He would have wanted someone to tell him that Minas Tirith would be victorious. I should say that even Frodo's forgiveness would be very secondary to that.
Posted by Silmarien @ 2001 Jun 12 09:23 AM EST
Silmarien,
Do you have anyone in mind that could convincingly reassure him of such a victory?
Posted by Annatar The Fair @ 2001 Jun 12 09:30 AM EST
You guys all make me laugh :). I'm going to leave the Led Zeppelin link above with the faith that Deb is unlikely to look at it before reading the next chapter :), but I'm going to take out the other spoilers soon as I can.
And I hate being so busy, because there are so many letters I want to comment on here! I'm keeping notes for later... :)
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 12 09:55 AM EST
It's so very easy to become a spoile[d]r brat in here! (Sorry, bad joke... ;o)
If I were Boromir I would like to see Faramir. Why, I would LOVE to see Faramir ANYWHERE! ;))
Alright, not joking now: I really think Boromir would have wanted to have Denethor at his side at the time of his death. Denethor was the one behind him all the time, and Boromir was His Father's Son. I think Boromirs thoughts went to Denethor, and that he wanted to beg his father of forgiveness for failing his mission and failing to return to Minas Tirith.
I really feel sorry for Boromir, in spite of his actions and attitudes. I think Aragorn shows great leadership and humility when he forgives Boromir in his last moments of remorse.
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 12 10:15 AM EST
Wow, so much in this batch of posts to get me to thinking. First of all, I was really touched that so many of you resonated with my comment about geography. When I was young and thought there was no hope of anyone making a movie of LoTR, I used to imagine how I would do it, and of course I imagined filming it in Colorado, since that's all I knew. I cast my friends and family in all the parts. My brother's too old to be Eomer now, but my son would fit the part. And my husband still looks like Tom Bombadil. :-) I imagined Pikes Peak as Lonely Mountain, and Pawnee Grasslands as Rohan, and Longs Peak as Caradhras, and Timberline Falls as Dimrill Stair, and any aspen grove in fall as Lothlorian. I'm sure Jackson will do a better job than I would have! But I think Tolkien would be glad to know that he taught us how to love our own earth, since he did too.
I was looking in one of my hymnals last night and discovered that the tune I've been calling "Star of the County Down", the one I use for Sam's song "In Western Lands", has the tune name "Kingsfold" in the hymnals. Made me think of Kingsfoil ;-) (Hope that's not a spoiler; it shouldn't mean anything to Deb yet.)
I was moved by the references to Boromir above. The first time I read LoTR I was thirteen and a self-righteous little prig, because I hadn't lived long enough to fail at anything much. Now that I'm 44 I understand human failure a lot better, and I have more patience with and understanding for Boromir. I'm just coming into Lothlorian in my 21st reading, and wincing to think of his death coming soon.
Also I was thinking of Gandalf's words yesterday, when McVeigh was executed. I took some satisfaction in his death, but I couldn't help remembering what Gandalf said: "Deserves death? I daresay he does. And many who die deserve life. Can you give it to them?"
This site is so great. I'm thinking of copying it all onto disks so I can read it long after it's gone from the 'Net. Thanks to everyone for a wonderful discussion.
Posted by Karen @ 2001 Jun 12 10:35 AM EST
Bear with us, Charley. We're trying to keep all spoilers from Deb, even those that may seem obvious to us.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 12 10:38 AM EST
Allison: If I'm violating copyright by copying these pages onto my hard drive for my own use (just to read) please let me know.
Posted by Karen @ 2001 Jun 12 10:51 AM EST
Ehm, Katarina, how are you? We could shake our hands again :o)
But seriously: It's hard to say. Boromir was afraid that he'd failed. Aragorn tried to reassure him, that he hadn't. Maybe Aragorn was the right person to be with him, he really could reassure him that Minas Tirith would not fall and he did it. I'm sure Aragorn believed it.
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 12 11:00 AM EST
Karen,
How great that you see Middle Earth in Colorado! I also grew up in Colorado and I could never cross South Park without thinking, "this is where they should film a live action LOTR."
Posted by Tom @ 2001 Jun 12 11:26 AM EST
I believe Boromir would have wished to reassure his father that he was dying at peace with the world, and if he could have guessed his fathers fate he would have wished to say words to heal his father's wound and avert that awful tragedy. Boromir's death was beautiful and full of grace - he did not need further forgiveness, as the depiction of his face attests.
As for the fate of Minas Tirith - having done all he could, he laid upon Aragorn the request to save his people - and Aragorn accepted to try. I equate the death of Boromir with Sam seeing the star in a way - acceptance of one's fate and rising above it or beyond it at the same time.
Posted by Christopher B. @ 2001 Jun 12 11:59 AM EST
Although I agree that Boromir redeemed himself at the end, I don't consider him the greatest hero of the story. The fact remains that his vision was narrow and tragically limited up until the very end. Faramir on the other hand acted heroically on a daily basis, with a vision that far exceeded the narrow interests of Denethor. He lived with great pain, knowing that his behavior brought disapproval (bordering on condemnation) from his father. I admire this kind of heroism far more than "valiant" strength of arms (although in this area Faramir is clearly not lacking). I think a lifetime of quiet heroism outweighs one spectacular act of redemption.
Posted by Jeff B @ 2001 Jun 12 12:18 PM EST
Karen- I love the scenery of Middle-Earth, too. It seems to me that most people that complain about the "over hill and dale" stuff either haven't read the books or haven't gotten to the end of them yet. I notice Deb hasn't complained about that in quite some time :). It occurred to me that Middle-Earth is a lot like I was saying about Frodo and Merry above, it opens up in front of us slowly as the story goes along, becomes more vivid and compelling, and we fall in love with it as surely as any other character in the book. By the time you're into multiple readings you want to spend as much time with the scenery as you do any other character in the book. Also the uniqueness of each setting just makes you appreciate other settings more. You want to linger longer in the green and calm of The Shire knowing Mordor will come along soon enough. Lothlorien is even lovelier after the darkness and closeness of Moria. Which doesn't cancel the fact that Moria and Mordor are vivid and terrifying on their own.
Elijah Wood and Mordor, yeah, you and me both, Karen. When I found my heart going out to him even in that two minute trailer for Fellowship I had a chilled premonition that watching the second and third movies will be difficult, indeed...
As for copyright, I'm not quite sure what Debbie's policies are for her websites. I'm sure she'll answer your letter once she sees it. But if I have my way, she'll never take this website down :).
More later... writing to these boards is irresistable, but my lunch hour is over!
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 12 12:25 PM EST
When Boromir laid the request to Aragorn save his people we see Boromir finally admitting to himself that Aragorn is the true heir to Gondor. There is definatley some animosity between them when Boromir hears that Aragorn is the heir of Isildur.
Let's pretend Boromir does not die and makes it back to Minas Tirith. Boromir was very akin to his father and Denthor was not happy that some Ranger out of the north was claiming to be the heir of Isildur. How would Boromir feel?
To paraphrase "How long must the stewards rule before they can be called king?" or something like that. Denthor was tired of his line being stewards and not kings.
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 12 12:32 PM EST
my 2 main reasons why I love Tolkien so much
1) the sense of REALNESS, being there, looking at the trees, seeing and feeling the wind set the branches in motion, seeing the wide wind-swept grasslands of Rohan, feeling the cool autumn air when the hobbits travel or the snowstorm at Caradhras, feeling the sunshine on the grass with the elanor in Cerin Amroth, seing the moon slowly climb up or fade etc.
2) Languages which too give an impression of being "real", giving sense of history, change, influence over long periods of time ...
Posted by Ioreth @ 2001 Jun 12 12:41 PM EST
On the Sam & Frodo topic.....we have been discussing why we liked Frodo or Sam more from the begining. I was just skimming ROTK when Gandalf and Pipin came to Minas Tirith and the men were astonished to see a halfling.
'A Halfling,' answered Gandalf. 'Nay, not the one that was spoken of,'
he added seeing the wonder in the men's faces. 'Not he, yet one of his
kindred.'
One good reason to warm to Frodo is that he is the Halfling in Boromir's (and Faromir's) dream. Durring the council of Elrond we learn that Frodo has a great destiny laid upon him.
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 12 12:42 PM EST
and as I posted in some early comment, for those of you liking hard-rock/heavy metal, definetely check out Blind Guardian´s Nightfall in Middle-Earth, wholly based on the Silmarillion!
Posted by Ioreth @ 2001 Jun 12 12:42 PM EST
Hey Tom! You a native to Colorado? I am.
I've always thought South Park, Co should be Rohan. My friend lives there in little tiny Como. If Rocky Mountain National Park didn't have Trail Ridge Road going through it, it could be Caradhras.
Posted by Talierin @ 2001 Jun 12 02:16 PM EST
About the Frodo/Sam debate:
I liked Frodo from the beginning of the story, and all the way through-- but I've always loved Sam as well, from the moment Gandalf pulled him in through the window by his ears! I agree with several people who have already said that it's impossible to say you like one better than the other-- it's the relationship between them that's so heart-warming. Again, neither Sam nor Frodo could have gotten as far as they did without one another.
Posted by E. Gamgee @ 2001 Jun 12 02:32 PM EST
There's an interesting essay in the Green Books (http://greenbooks.theonering.net/quickbeam/files/030101.html) about why the author thinks Sam is the hero. Basically, it's because he grows the most. (And I was chuckling over a comment of Debbie's that I can't say anything about 'cause it'd be a spoiler!!) But it really is Sam+Frodo that's the hero.
Another thing -- this will be even more apparant as you continue through Mordor -- this chapter really picks up the theme of courage without hope again. I like this quote from Tolkien's radio play in “The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm’s Son”:
“Heart shall be bolder, harder be purpose,
more proud the spirit as our power lessens!
Mind shall not falter nor mood waver,
though doom shall come and dark conquer.”
Brr!!!
And scenery -- I agree, as I read it again and again I got deeper and deeper into the scenery. Our new home in Oklahoma has a couple acres of tangled oak forest that we call Mirkwood -- and yes, it has spiders! Nasty-looking things that weave tunnel-like webs inside hollow branches! But our berry bushes have nice, edible berries, and there's no stream across the path. Maybe we'll put one in someday...;)
Posted by Janet Croft @ 2001 Jun 12 03:55 PM EST
Jane,
I've got such spiders behind my bookcase and I must sweep them all the time :o) But I'm wondering what are you going to sprinkle into your stream so that it will cause drawsiness :o)))
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 12 04:44 PM EST
Silmarien, you bring up a good point regarding Boromir being a flawed hero. It reminds me a lot of the "Sam's Decision" debate of the last chapter's postings. Sam is undoubtedly a hero... but would you compare him to Boromir as a "flawed hero"? Sam's flaw was too much love for Frodo, to decide to save him (or die trying) at the possible and likely cost of ending the quest and doom the the people of Middle Earth. Boromir's flaw was pride and desire for glory, no? So if there is a debate over which hero in the story is more heroic, I'd have to put Sam way ahead of Mr. Boromir...
Posted by RChris @ 2001 Jun 12 09:08 PM EST
RChris,
So would I. At least Sam's "flaw" is altruistic. I always thought that Boromir's concern for the glory of Gondor was ultimately a selfish concern. He was really only heroic by chance of circumstance, where with Sam it was a conscious decision.
Posted by Silmarien @ 2001 Jun 12 10:35 PM EST
Roland: I'm going to go back to your Led Zeppelin comment from way above. I am not very familiar with LZ's music, but my husband has been a major fan for years. So, I was telling him today about the LZ/Tolkien spoiler controversy that was going on here earlier today and I told him I was sure it was about a song called "Ramble On" that I've seen mentioned on Tolkien boards, but I'd never heard before. So John went to mall and bought a LZ tape so I could hear the song. Now, John's been a LZ fan for years, but has just started reading LOTR recently, I've been a Tolkien fan forever, but I'm not familiar with LZ's music. We listened to two verses of that song in the car, turned to each other and said, "It's Frodo." :). And I know, too, that it's the last verse of that song that has the spoiler in it that likely had people concerned earlier today, but I tell you, I'd -defy- Deb to figure out the spoiler in those obscure lyrics without knowing LOTR first :). Not that I'm going to suggest she go read them before the next chapter :). Nifty song, though. Can't agree with you that Zep is the greatest band of all time, though. That, of course, would be The Beatles.
Karen- Speaking of songs, I really like Sam's "In Western Lands", too, especially since lines like, "above all shadows rides the Sun and Stars forever dwell: I will not say the Day is done, nor bid the Stars farewell." foreshadow so nicely the star scene in the next chapter and because it shows that Sam hasn't lost all hope, even in this darkest of places. My favorite setting of that poem is on Kristoph and Margaret's "The Sunlit Jewel", it really is nice.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 12 11:12 PM EST
Interesting thoughts about who Boromir would have wanted to see at the end. Quite possibly he would have wanted to see Denethor, but I can't help but think that Denethor's last words to him would be along the lines of "after all my hopes for you, I can't believe you let me down in the end".... :-(
(Karen: Don't worry about "kingsfoil" being a spoiler; we're past that already. Debbie herself mentioned it a few chapters back.)
Posted by Olorin @ 2001 Jun 12 11:54 PM EST
Good morning!
For many of you across the Atlantic, it's still night, I know, but here in Stockholm it is a beautiful summer morning...
Anyway, Allison and Karen, I just read your comments about music to Sam's "In Western Lands". Just want to add that in the BBC readio play they composed a really beautiful tune to that song, too. It's very touching (as in the books) when Sam sings it. I've got the special CD with only the music from the play, and often listen to it while I am at this board. It's a more classical kind of music, most of it, but I like it a lot.
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 13 01:47 AM EST
Concerning Boromir's being a complete failure, I have to say that he made one of the most important contributions to the Quest, namely attempting to take the Ring by force and thus giving Frodo the resolve to do what he had to do in the nick of time.
Concerning the debate over Sam as the true hero, I would love to take credit for starting the debate ("Behold the power of Demosthenes and Locke," you Ender's Game fans) but I'm afraid too many (my wife included) might say that Will's shoulders needed relieving of a swollen head. Truthfully, the debate obviously transcends anything I could post, and the lack of fresh posts from Debbie has been the fuel, spark, and oxygen of this chapter's debates.
Concerning the Frodo/Sam relationship/partnership discussion, ever since I read Don Quixote de la Mancha I've been struck by the similarities in the relationship between Frodo and Sam and the relationship between don Quixote and Sancho Panza. Sancho is the pragmatic commoner whose folk wisdom provides much of the humor and who worries about food and lodging while his master occupies his mind with the elemental struggle of good versus evil. Sancho keeps the duo grounded in the here and now and is a foil of his master, but many critics talk about "la quixotización de Sancho," the process by which Sancho becomes almost as quixotic as don Quixote.
I don't mean to suggest that Sam and Frodo are the typical road-movie/buddy-film protagonists and the Professor has never created anything original because his main characters are obvious rip-offs. What I DO want to say is:
A) What similarities do others see between Frodo/Sam and don Quijote/Sancho, and what insights into Frodo and Sam's relationship does the comparison provide?
B) Is an essay question of this nature too geeky even for Tolkien geeks?
Posted by Will @ 2001 Jun 13 02:05 AM EST
Will,
I think you may be tilting at windmills with that question
Posted by Silmarien @ 2001 Jun 13 02:23 AM EST
Whoa Will - isn't there something of a potential huge spoiler in the first paragraph of your last post??!!
Posted by Andy @ 2001 Jun 13 02:57 AM EST
Good morning Katarina! So there is a CD with just the songs from the BBC version available separately? If so, how is it marked?
As for who is "the hero" - I think this is not really a question that has an answer. Each person has their role that they play, from Gollum and Boromir and Denethor (he stations Faramir in Ithilien where he is able to help Frodo FI) to Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel (I have always credited her with the water Sam and Frodo find in Mordor - in addition to all her other contributions), and of course the main characters of the Fellowship. Each contributes according to their nature. And of course, if it were not for Sauron, there would be no heroes or heroines, no struggle, no story :)
Posted by Christopher B. @ 2001 Jun 13 03:11 AM EST
RChris, I have to disagree that Boromir's actions were caused by his pride and desire for glory. His main concern was not the glory of Minas Tirith, but her survival. As he pointed out during the council of Elrond, people of Gondor were the only barrier between Sauron and the world. Neither dwarves nor elves nor hobbits participated in the war which was very real for Gondor. If Gondor was to fall, which nation was really ready to defend itself against Mordor?? No, they just lived their lives without worrying too much about this very real war. Well, some did worry, but they didn't exactly run to Minas Tirith with offers of help and union. So Gondor was left alone to fight against the overwhelming odds. Boromir was the eldest son of the Stewart. Naturally he felt very responsible for the lives of his people and his country. If noone else cared, he did. It was his responsibility to protect Gondor. Yes, he was proud and he did desire glory, but isn't it only natural and human? The point is it wasn't pride that governed his actions, it was his sense of responsibility. Or at least that's what I think.
Posted by Ruby @ 2001 Jun 13 03:20 AM EST
Will, yes there is a SPOILER. I haven't realized it myself, byt Andy is right.
Can you do something with it, Allison?
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 13 03:21 AM EST
Ruby, I quite agree with you. IMHO we can learn a lot about Boromir from Faramir's words (in Ithilien). He speaks of him with love and admiration. Faramir was wiser then his brother but it doesn’t mean that Boromir was a “bad guy”. Boromir had been encouraged to be proud and to desire for glory by his own father, Faramir, on the other hand, had been underestimated. It must have shaped their characters.
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 13 04:01 AM EST
Christopher B
About the CD with songs from the BBC radio play: If you by the English edition, this record is included. But that edition costs about $120. Instead I got the American edition for about half that price (at B&N). It's the exact same recording but the music CD is excluded.
Instead I found the separate music CD at The Tolkien shop, a dutch Internetstore where they have absolutely everything. Often more expensive than the big stores, but you find things there noone else has. This record for instance, I found nowhere else. (It's not very clear how it is marked, though.) Here's the URL: http://www.tolkienshop.com/
This is not meant as an advertisement, just a tip from a fellow Tolkien fan who is having a bad seizure of shopping at the moment...
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 13 04:11 AM EST
One more thing: I wouldn't compare Boromir to Gollum. Boromir's motives had been clear, more or less, all the time. Later, the power of the Ring made his worse side more visible. But what do we know about Gollum? He had been an evil creature before he got the Ring. He killed his own brother just to get a small piece of gold! It was not the destructive power of the Ring that caused it. It was Gollum himself.
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 13 04:27 AM EST
Katarina,
they have also Czech version of several JRRT's books on tolkienshop.com! I'm very surprised :o). And they say the Hobbit is "very nicely illustrated" (by a Czech illustrator) - I'm wondering if they mean it seriously, I don't like the illustrations very much :o). There is only one positiv thing on them: they can't destroy your own imagination :o))))
You can have a look http://www.xs4all.nl/~rossnbrg/hobit.jpg
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 13 05:08 AM EST
Katerina, I don’t believe Smeagol was any more evil than Boromir, or that he was an evil creature before he got the ring. He was merely flawed like Boromir. While Boromir’s faults were as numerous as his strengths I believe Smeagol had just one. That one flaw being one that is prevalent among hobbit’s a need to collect pretty things which in Smeagol’s case was stronger than most and could be termed greed. I don’t believe Smeagol was a murderer, although he did murder his brother it was under the influence of the ring. You must remember that possession of the ring is not required in order for it to excerpt its power. The ring saw an opportunity to reach out and corrupt someone enough to commit a deed beyond their normal behaviour, at the same time making them an outcast from society and hence I would guess easier to manipulate and guide towards Mordor and Mordor’s allies.
Regarding the discussion of Boromir’s valour, which seems to have mutated in to a discussion of how heroic or not he was. I’m taking this opportunity to remind people that the poll was regarding people’s choice of the most valiant character of the LOTR, which is very different to the most heroic character. Hence the reason I put forward Boromir who was missing from the options available. Boromir was by no means the most heroic character, there are many whose heroism exceeds his. But as far as valour goes I believe he fits the bill as number one.
Here is a reminder of the definition I posted.
valiant - adjective
1. courageous: brave and steadfast
2. done courageously: characterised by or performed with bravery but often ending in failure
It’s the ‘performed with bravery but often ending in failure’ bit which fits no other character better than Boromir. His bravery is unquestioned and his failure on a personal level was immense. As far as he was concerned he had failed his friends, family, allies and himself and would get no chance of redemption as the one thing he did succeed in was ending his own life.
Posted by Annatar The Fair @ 2001 Jun 13 05:58 AM EST
Katerina
I think those Czech illustrations are quite nice - in themselves. But they don't work very well as illustrations of The Hobbit! :) I mean, Hobbit houses *above* ground!!?? :)))
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 13 06:26 AM EST
Gondor thought it was the last line of defence against Mordor, which contributed to Denethor's despair, but it wasn't. Aragorn corrected Boromir when he made that claim at the council of Elrond.
Still, the belief that they were the last line helped form Boromir's character. He saw the clear military threat, but that obscured the greater danger. Sauron isn't just a military and political rival of Denethor,no diffetent from any other human king, he is an incarnate inhuman evil.
It was because Boromir was initially thinking in purely military terms that he thought of the Ring as a weapon to be used. After he realised how the Ring had touched him he moved beyond his childhood prejudices and died protecting hobbits. If he'd still been putting the military good of Gondor first he'd have saved his own life for the coming battles but instead he gave it to help others who, to the best of his knowledge, would be powerless to help Gondor.
Realising you have been wrong is never easy. That Boromir did so and immediately acted to make amends shows his strength of character, even if he did leave it late. He showed his virtue best, not by fighting orcs but by fighting his own flaws.
Posted by Robert @ 2001 Jun 13 06:41 AM EST
Great post, Will, but at the request of others here I've removed two sentences from your first paragraph that could be seen as spoilers.
I'm starting to totally sympathize with how much we need the freedom to discuss Chapter 3 to conclude a -lot- of our analysis above in about 3-4 different threads of discussion :).
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 13 06:59 AM EST
Annatar: All right, so we have a different opinion but it doesn’t matter, I hope :o) I just can’t imagine that the Ring could make someone kill his own brother cold bloodedly within few minutes, but there could be some information about the Ring that I don’t have. I’m not an expert, I admit it.
Katarina:
Not every hobbithouse was under the ground. If you read the appendix of LotR (I don’t remember which one it is) there is written that actually only the poorest and the richest hobbits lived in real holes (in Bilbo’s days). The rest made their houses above ground - also when the country was too flat. But there is a bigger mistake on that illustration: the houses don’t have round windows and doors! And that was typical for most hobbit houses - either under or above ground. And if you have a look at Beg End (you can see only a small part of it on the picture) it looks like some kind of submarine with those small round windows rather then Beg End :o)))))))
(To be honest, Hobbiton is probably the worst thing on these illustrations. For example Gandalf’s huge black boots are perfect :o))))))
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 13 07:21 AM EST
Katerina: Reversing your argument, I just can’t imagine what could make someone kill his own brother cold bloodily within a few minutes, certainly not a small trinket such as a ring. Unless of course other forces, possibly of a magical nature, were at work.
P.S. Don't worry differing opinions are allowed, just not tolerated.....Only kidding.....Honest! ;o)
Posted by Annatar The Fair @ 2001 Jun 13 08:49 AM EST
Quick question. Regarding Deagol, was he Smeagol's friend or brother? I thought friend and have checked a couple of on line sources which say the same. But earlier in this thread they were mentioned as brothers which I then assumed must have been the case as it's many years since I've actually read any Tolkien (excluding the last week in which I've just begun reading FOTR). Can anyone with the sacred text at hand confirm one way or the other?
Posted by Annatar The Fair @ 2001 Jun 13 09:06 AM EST
Regarding my having just begun reading the LOTR trilogy once again, you should all know that I hold you (and the upcoming films) directly responsible. I have never read a book in my life more than once (excluding my children's books which I have read to them countless times) and have always resisted due to the vast number of books that I haven't yet read and will probably never get to read.
So there! Hope you're all happy now. ;)
Posted by Annatar The Fair @ 2001 Jun 13 09:17 AM EST
Annatar:
Yes, I am very happy >;o)))))
And you are right, Smeagol and Deagol were just friends - or at least so it is written in the prologue of LotR in the part "On Finding of the Ring". Sorry for misinforming you.
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 13 09:40 AM EST
About Smeagol and the corruption of the Ring. I once felt much the same as some people here, that Gollum could never have done what he did to get the Ring if he wasn't already evil, that Boromir couldn't have attacked Frodo for the Ring without some inner darkness himself. But the scene that has always disturbed me greatly is the scene where Frodo turns on Sam in Chapter 1. I find it so shocking that the Ring can corrupt even that friendship that the realization reflects back on both Gollum and Boromir and their temptations by the Ring.
To me it's just the most sobering example of how innocent intention or noble cause can be manipulated by the Ring for its own purposes. And even Frodo's apology seconds later doesn't change that, because the only thing that saves Frodo from his moment of madness is that Sam willingly returns the Ring to him (which speaks a lot more of Sam's moral strength than Frodo's, Sam is the only character we've seen who is able to give up the Ring of his own free will for a greater cause).
It's almost too terrible to contemplate what might have happened in that tower room if Sam had refused to return the Ring to Frodo (though one has to assume if Sam was that corrupted by the Ring he wouldn't have returned for Frodo in the first place). It made me realize that about the only difference between Gollum and Boromir's moment of weakness and Frodo's from a moral standpoint is that Sam was there to keep Frodo from the consequences of his temptation and Frodo will be around long enough to seek Sam's forgiveness and regain our trust and sympathy.
It makes me much more understanding of Gollum and Boromir's moments of weakness with the Ring- the Ring truly is more powerful and evil than one individual can bear.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 13 10:00 AM EST
Just don't get me reading the Silmarillion again.
BTW This is now the longest thread having just passed the previous 128 entry high, thanks to Katerina's note which was the 129th.
Posted by Annatar The Fair @ 2001 Jun 13 10:03 AM EST
Ooh, I have to make it longer, . . . The first dozen times I re-checked this site, it was looking for an update. However, I must admit that the last six times, it was for the comments. I don't check my e-mail this often! But thanks to all of you, I'm seeing one of my favorite worlds from so many pairs of eyes it's astounding. So, to make up for all the times I didn't post, Faramir should win the heroism award, if only for how well and honorably he handles that severely dysfunctional family of his. And his military record is as good as anyone's,(sans Aragorn, who's been around and fighting so long it boggles my mind completely. Remember the scene where he meets Eomer?) Eowyn shouldn't get the hero award, because, as was stated, she did what she did because of a death wish, as much as for valorous reasons. Which is one reason I think she managed to take out the Witch King. His most formidable weapon was fear, and she had nothing left to be afraid of. Except perhaps, of living to watch everyone die. Don't get me wrong. She's still my favorite character.
Now update, Debbie, so I can talk about the chapter I know all us Eowyn fans are waiting for. And Thank you. All of you.
Posted by Ruth Lampi @ 2001 Jun 13 10:31 AM EST
This site is just so addictive! :-)
I had decided to re-read all Debbie's post from the beginning as there seems to be so many extra comments from when I first read them and I just realised that it has just gone 3.30am and I'm still here! It is time I went to bed.
Posted by Silmarien @ 2001 Jun 13 11:34 AM EST
I came to this weblog just after it started to kill time till The Fellowship comes out in Decenber. Now I'm trying to kill time till Debbie comes back.
I found a site with lots of LOTR / Sil. trivia that was fun for a while. http://www.barrowdowns.com
I'm not affiliated with that site so please don't take this as an advertisement, just some fun for those who miss Deb.
P.s. I guess I could get some work done to kill time.....but what fun would that be?? ;-)
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 13 12:22 PM EST
Eagerly, eagerly, eagerly, eagerly, EAGERLY awaiting the post for the next chapter!!
Posted by E. Gamgee @ 2001 Jun 13 12:33 PM EST
Robert, I agree that Boromir was thinking in military terms all the while-he kinda had to, IMO. However, I just don't see him ever abandoning hobbits to orcs in order to save his life for the good of Gondor. That just isn't happening. Remember even in Mordor he was ready to help Gandalf fight the Balrog, even thought Gandalf himself told them to get out of there. No, no matter what flaws he had, he would never leave his friends(or companions) to fight the enemy alone.
Now, as to Smeagol... I just have to point it out that it took the least amount of time in the company of the Ring for him to get his evil side out. How long was it, a couple of minutes?? Also, I don't think it really mattered THAT much to the Ring which hobbit would posess it-Smeagol and Deagol. I'm sure the Ring is pretty confident in its ability to corrupt anybody. So I think that you can't put all the blame of Smeagol's actions on the Ring. He was at least a willing partner.
Posted by Ruby @ 2001 Jun 13 12:35 PM EST
We waitsessss.....Yesss.....Waitsessss.....For preciousssss
Posted by Anon @ 2001 Jun 13 12:48 PM EST
Regarding Sam giving back the ring. I think if Sam had had it longer it would of been more difficult for him. Frodo had possessed it for a couple of decades I believe. He got the ring when he was 33. It was 17?? years later they went on the quest to Destroy the ring.
Posted by Nick @ 2001 Jun 13 01:11 PM EST
I keep a running tally of the posts after Debbie's comments so I read the new ones everytime I come to the sight. It's a bit teadius trying to count messages to where I left off on the ones that grow a lot, but it's better than reading everything again. That, and occasionaly a debateable argument shows up in the earlier chapters as new people join us.
Posted by J'nae Rae Campbell @ 2001 Jun 13 01:11 PM EST
OK, I am getting VERY fidgety here, waiting for the next update!!
Posted by Fatty Lumpkin @ 2001 Jun 13 01:22 PM EST
Ruby--
Good point about Smeagol. I totally agree!
Does anyone know when Deb gets back???
Waiting. . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted by E. Gamgee @ 2001 Jun 13 01:51 PM EST
Deb won't be back in Toronto (where she'll have full on-line connections again) until the first week of July. Though I'm sure she'll attempt to post some reports from the cottage while she's out there. I notice today she was able to updated "Waiting For Frodo" yesterday.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 13 02:08 PM EST
Ruby: Good point about the ring not caring about whom possessed it or it possessed for that matter. Maybe it saw something it liked in Smeagol that made him a more useful ring bearer than Deagol.
As for the method of transferring possession, a though occurs to me.
If I was the One Ring and I had been sat at the bottom of a river for so long, what would be the first thing I’d do? Having gone to such lengths as to use a fish to drag a helpless hobbit to the bottom of the Anduin to retrieve me (unless this was a coincidence) I’d want to flex my muscles a little more than just fish control. I’d also want a little entertainment. I’d want to lash out.
Looking about I’d find two hobbits, close friends at that, one in whose hands I rest and one looking on. With nobody else around to see I think I’d want to get a little action. Nobody would ever know. I only need one of them.
We all know what happened next.
Posted by Annatar The Fair @ 2001 Jun 13 02:11 PM EST
Allison - Aaaaak! What have you done to us?? OK - best to know that information sooner rather than later. I will soon be out of www for most of 5 weeks - so please be sure to have Debbie keep the post up on the site.
Posted by Christopher B. @ 2001 Jun 13 02:31 PM EST
Christopher B.- What have -I- done to you? :) Truth is, I don't know when Deb is is going to post next any more than any of the rest of you. It could be in the next hour and it could be next week. I'd like to see the Chapter 3 report, too, but I'm OK to wait (though you'll notice I'm spending as much time here as any of you- I love Deb's reports and the discussion here). Deb warned you and so did I- Book 6 will be a leisurely walk. So, enjoy the scenery :).
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 13 02:51 PM EST
Allison - just a tease, but I thought I remembered you saying that you had convinced Debbie not to post till she had access. Perhaps the length of time was discussed then, but I don't remember.
No problem, just a surprise to me :) and this way when she does post it will be a special treat.
Posted by Christopher B. @ 2001 Jun 13 03:03 PM EST
Though you needn't worry that the Book 6 posts will be gone before you get back. I'm sure they'll be here.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 13 03:04 PM EST
The first week of July! That is some cliffhanger... I hope you do get to mail som reports from the cottage, Debbie. Mostly for your own sake, actually, I don't know how you can refrain from finishing the book. And maybe you can't... I wouldn't blame you, just as long as I get to read your reports afterwards. ;)
It's interesting how so many of us have become addicted to this site these last few weeks. I check in several times a day - I never did that with any other site before. And it's not only because of Debbies very entertaining chapter comments. I also like the atmosphere on this board very much. Good discussions, and a lot of laughs. Open and generous attitude. I never posted this much on any board before! :))
We all have a part in creating this. Thank you, all! Especially Debbie, of course. And Allison, who I sometimes perceive as a kind of "hostess", mingling with the guests and enjoing the company... Thanks Allison! :))))
Anyway -it's not over yet, so I'm a bit premature with the thanks... Annatar The Fair, I am also very happy that we inspired you to a reread of LotR! And who knows about The Silmarillion, eh? And I enjoyed your fantasy about the The Ring wanting to flex its muscles. LOL :D
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 13 03:05 PM EST
Not a problem, Christopher :). Just in case I wasn't clear above, I'm not saying Deb won't post again until July. I'm just saying it will be more difficult for her to post in these next few weeks while she's at the cottage. I'm more than confident we'll see posts from her before then. I'm waiting as anxiously as the rest of you :). Though I'm feeling somewhat guilty now that I made her promise not to read anymore until she could post... I don't think I was quite aware of the timelines involved. Awk, I've stranded her in the midst of Mordor just as surely as the rest of us...
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 13 03:12 PM EST
Katarina- I know just how you feel :). I've been lurking on Tolkien sites for as long as I've had an Internet connection, but I've always been somewhat shy about jumping into the discussion anywhere else before. The beauty of this site is that I knew Debbie well and knew many of the people that posted in the early days so it was easy to develop a comfort level early. But, then, the -real- joy of this site for me was when Tolkienites from around the world discovered the site and joined in the discussion. I just thrive on the passion and love of Tolkien's literature that's so strong here, all the things I'm learning, it's so satisfying to be part of the discussion and meeting people like Katarina there, who though halfway around the world from me and reading LOTR in another language, is as hopelessly sentimental about hobbits as I am :).
If I sounded abrupt above, Christopher B., I apologize. I really didn't mean to.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 13 03:26 PM EST
Ruby,
that's what I wanted to say. The Ring had a very short time to convert Smeagol so totally. But I was thinking about another interesting fact. Smeagol had no idea WHAT ring it was. (Or am I mistaken?) I have noticed that everybody who ever desired to have the Ring (even if it was only a brief thought) did so because they knew how powerful could they be. It was not necessary to have the Ring in hand (just remember Galadriel and Boromir end even Denethor). With Frodo and Bilbo and also with Smeagol it was something else. They owned the Ring without knowing exactly what it is. So I think that Smeagol had no real "reason" to desire the Ring. The power that affected people to do or to think bad things was either their long ownership of the Ring or their knowledge of it's real power. (But some of them, for example Galadriel, desired the Ring without doing or thinking something evil. She knew exactly what could she do with it but was luckily wise and strong enough to realize the danger and to refuse it.) Therefore, in my very humble opinion, Smeagol must had been bad before he got the Ring.
(I hope I havent missed some important fact that could disprove my arguments :o)))
Howg :o)))
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 13 04:18 PM EST
Debbie, just a suggestion. Would it be very difficult to add a counter to the posted comments? Every time I check back there's another 30 or 40, and I have to try to figure out where I left off.
There's GOT to be an easy way to add a number to each new post.
Just a thought...... hurry back!
Posted by Sirelle @ 2001 Jun 13 04:28 PM EST
An easy way to remember where you were in each posting list would be to note the date and time of the last post or when you last looked at them...
Posted by Father Time @ 2001 Jun 13 04:31 PM EST
Allison
Thank you for the response! So you were shy of those other boards too?? I wouldn't have thought it. :)) And yes, I am very sentimental... :)
Katerina
Howg????? :))
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 13 07:18 PM EST
Katarina: You don't exactly strike me as shy, either :). But I know what it's like to be quiet and then to blossom when you find the right place to do so. And I'm just glad to know I'm not the only one who is hopelessly sentimental about LOTR :).
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 13 07:59 PM EST
Katerina, I agree that Smeagol must've been bad already, so it was easy for the Ring to work with him. IMO it was much more important for the Ring to change owners from Gollum to Bilbo in the Hobbit than from Deagol to Smeagol. Yet I didn't see Bilbo cutting Gollum's throat or something like that, even though he actually HAD the Ring at the moment. So I think Smeagol was bad even before he got the Ring.
Posted by Ruby @ 2001 Jun 13 10:05 PM EST
I love our "Fellowship of the Ring" here. I think the person most seduced by the Ring was Saruman. He didn't even see or touch it, and thinking he was going to save the world from Sauron he became an imitation Sauron himself. That one of the Wise could fall so shows that for Gollum to fall is not so surprising.
Posted by dave @ 2001 Jun 13 10:17 PM EST
Katarina:
Howg - is it not what the Indians (american Indians) used to say when the speach was finished?
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 14 02:37 AM EST
Purdue Spoilermakers,
If you mean the now removed lines comparing the son of Thorongil's rival to the pseudo-Stoor, calling them "potential spoilers" might be fair. However, I was referring to events already discussed in The Two Towers, and so I must defend them (the censored lines, not the towers).
Of course, this defence is coming from a guy who not only posts don Quixote questions on a LOTR board, but also maintains that don Quixote is not crazy. (Please insert any further "tilting at windmills" comments here.)
I guess I'll add my name to the list of posters waiting for Debbie to finish Book VI, the appendices, the Silmarillion, the Peter Jackson films, and the Anthology of JRRTolkien's College Exam Doodles (edited by Christopher) before I post my quixotic potential spoiler comments.
"I'm not crazy; I've gone sane on an insane message board!!"
Katerina et al,
Concerning the nassty, wicked Sméagol, he was ovbiously not a very nice guy to begin with, but I can't believe him to be wholly evil (says Luke to Leia) from the start. He must have lost a game or two of hopscotch without throttling his opponent, otherwise Déagol never would have gone fishing with him or turned his back on him. There must have been a healthy chunk of Good in him at the start, because I find it hard to believe that his hesitation at the top of the stairs, after so many years of service and slavery to evil, could be evidence of some brand new Good surfacing.
I think that Sméagol was just a weak-willed guy that wasn't very nice but not particularly evil, and the Ring exerted an influence on him that was too great to resist. (A "crime of passion," if you will.) As Gandalf said, "The murder of Déagol haunted Gollum." He had some fragment of a conscience, and probably more than we're inclined to give him credit for (pardon my prepositions).
See also: Allison's comment on the influence that the Ring exerts on the purest of hearts.
Posted by Will @ 2001 Jun 14 02:52 AM EST
One more thing:
Did I miss something?
Was Déagol the brother of Sméagol?
Posted by Will @ 2001 Jun 14 02:59 AM EST
Sorry for being Redundo-Man with my last few posts. I promise I'll read more comments before my next post.
Posted by Will @ 2001 Jun 14 03:06 AM EST
Hobbit-kind are very resistant to the influence of the ring. As noted above, it took Bilbo many, many years of possession to be significantly affected by it... and Smeagol needed only a couple of minutes in his presence. Note also the comments by Gandalf about Smeagol's life, though IIRC they were mostly inference and extrapolation. He was pretty much a nasty sneak all along.
I'm not sure what kind of consciousness the Ring has. I don't know if its "desires" would go as far as a need to lash out.
As for keeping track of where I'd last read in each discussion page, after each reading session, I copy the text from the main index page (which includes the number of comments on each sub-page) into a file on my computer. On my next visit, I can easily see which discussions have had comments added.
Posted by Joel Polowin @ 2001 Jun 14 12:45 PM EST
Katerina
Oh, Indians! I only heard that word, in movies... Didn't know the spelling...I thought you had just slipped on your keeboard or something. Sorry :))))
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 14 07:31 PM EST
The "wheel of fire" is a Shakespeare reference. In King Lear the king in the midst of his mental torment declares : "thou art a sole in bliss, while I am bound upon a wheel of fire that mine own tears do scald like molten lead".
Lear's descenet into madness is one of the most harrowing accounts in English literature. I think Tolkien deliberately chose to echo it here to re-inforce Frodo's mental anguish
Posted by Diarmuid @ 2001 Jul 20 01:19 PM EST
