The Field Of Cormallen

Waiting For Frodo updated. Topic: "Windy Wendy returns".

I definitely have to read The Hobbit after this (I'll take a break first, though, while Allison starts up that Silmarillion reading group). I'm very curious about The Eagles reference. Also want to tackle The Prologue again, as well the Council of Elrond chapter, and the Appendices. Being more familiar with the characters, plot, and places, I'd like to find out more. I also want to go back and check those dire warnings from Galadriel to see if they came true. AND I'm going to force myself to read over some of my earlier journal entries, which I see now were sadly off the mark. Eek. You all must have been chortling to yourselves, thinking, "Just you wait...". Also want to read over all the comments, in case I missed any. And I want to hear about the spoilers people were posting...I'm really curious. :-) Please post them here, though, not in the earlier boards, just in case other Tolkien newbies start reading these reports, thanks.

I cheered inside when everything Mordor-like went fleeing and scattering...yay! Evil vanquished, the good guys win! (I think, anyway -- still haven't read to the very end yet, but I'm assuming that Tolkien isn't going to do the about-turn surprise ending disturbingly common in modern media).

Gwaihir is very cool (the eagle who carries Gandalf).

Cool that Gandalf already views the battered clothes and orc-rags that Frodo and Sam wore on their journey as important historical items worthy of preservation.

And YAYYYYY, I'm so glad Sam's box of Galadriel's garden earth is still okay!! :-)

Was very happy that the crowd's song (as they went to visit the new King) referred to them both equally, and even referred to "the Ring-bearers" as a plural term.

Was NOT happy when that minstreal of Gondor announced he was going to sing about "Frodo of the Nine Fingers and the Ring of Doom" without a mention of Sam. Ah well, Sam didn't seem to be hurt by this...and in fact was pretty tickled that his prediction/wish came true.

Enjoyed seeing the reunion with Merry and Pippin. Glad to see Pippin's okay! Was amused by his reminder to Frodo and Sam: "for the present Merry and I are busy. We are knights of the City and of the Mark, as I hope you observe."

I'm glad to see (through Pippin's comments) that Gandalf has lightened up considerably.

Very cool that Merry and Pippin are three inches taller because of drinking Ent-draughts. I wonder if all the hobbits will be wanting some now? ;-)

And yay for hairy hobbit feet! Glad that Gimli was able to find Pippin from beneath the heap of bodies after the last battle.

Loved this Sam quote:


"Well, one can't be everywhere at once, I suppose," he said. "But I missed a lot, seemingly."


So what's going to happen with Eowyn and Aragorn? And what about poor Arwen?

[Previous entry: "The Return of the King: BOOK VI - Chapter 3"] [Next entry: "The Return of the King: BOOK VI - Chapter 5"]

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 14 08:23 AM EST

Yes, this is such a nice chapter to read after all that doom and gloom. ;)
Yeay!! :)) Hurrah for the hobbits!

Posted by Jenny @ 2001 Jun 14 08:29 AM EST

Debbie, I just knew that you'd want to go back and read the Prologue, the Council of Elrond chapter and, of course, the Appendices at the end! The books just get to you, don't they? You've just got to know more...

Love those cartoons!!! Can't wait to see what you cook up for the rest of the summer and fall...

Posted by Jan @ 2001 Jun 14 09:40 AM EST

Love those eagles. Also loved them in "Bored of the Rings". In that they were referred to as "Deus Ex Machina Airways", (I think thats the spelling).:-D

I'm sure that Frodo told everyone just how much Sam had done. Even the King bowed before him and how else would he have known.

Posted by Silmarien @ 2001 Jun 14 09:47 AM EST

I agree that reading "The Hobbit" is a logical next step, but don't expect it to read like LOTR does. I found it to have a completely different tone (having been written earlier; remember, LOTR was originally supposed to be a sequel to it!). If anything, it sounds a bit like the pre-Bree chapters of LOTR. It gets more serious towards the end, but still overall it's a lighter read - and Tolkien writes in "storyteller/narrator" mode more often than in LOTR.

Posted by SK @ 2001 Jun 14 10:15 AM EST

Debbie you are hooked....

We all knew that you would want to go back and read the prologue and some other parts. We knew that you would be thirstful for knowledge of the characters. WE KNEW.....

And now you are hooked. Welcome to the club.

This is a great chapter. You just get a good feeling when you know that the hobbits are together and safe again.

Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 14 10:17 AM EST

*!references to SPOILER links!*
I know this was part of the chapter 3 discussion, but I couldn't resist posting something about it here for further exposure ;o) There are some FABULOUS links posted by Talierin in the last chapter. Rolozo Tolkien also has tons of additoinal artists.

I haven't even begun to scratch the surface in exploring Tolkien paintings, but I must heartily agree with Talierin that Anke Katrin Eissmann is one of the best I've seen. Thanks especially for the link to the elfwood site Talierin! It's great to see these pics next to the text that inspired them! Anyway, she is an AMAZING artist and everyone should check out her paintings. I especially love her portrayals of the events in the Silmarillion. These paintings really brought back the emotions that I felt when reading it.

ps. Allison - glad to see you've discovered her work!

pps. Debbie - I'm loving waiting for Frodo more every update! Windy Wendy returns was great!!!

Posted by Phil @ 2001 Jun 14 10:34 AM EST

Out of curousity, how do you think the books will end, Debbie? It's been quite foreshadowed...

My problem with the eagles was always this: If they can fly into Mordor, why didn't they just fly someone in to drop the ring off? The only answers I can come up with are 1)If they got shot down, etc., the quest would automatically fail and 2)They couldn't/wouldn't enter Mordor until it was falling or 3)because that would make a crummy story. Ideas? I personally think three is the most likely... :)

Hmm, I was reading the discussion a few chapters back about whether or not it was irresponsible for Sam to go back for 'dead' Frodo. Here's my take...Yes, it was. The logical thing to do was to take the ring, and destroy the sucker. Sam was certainly physically capable of doing so -- I mean, exausted, dehydrated, starving and afraid, he managed to carry Frodo there, so he sure could have walked himself up the mountain -- and mentally, he was probably the most capable of casting the ring away. BUT, leaving Frodo would have gone contrary to the characteristics that made him capable of doing what he did -- extreme loyalty, selflessness, humbleness, and the like. Without these, he wouldn't have been able to protect Frodo, nor would the ring have been safe with him, so he couldn't have carried it anyway. Sam is exposed to the ring longer than any other non-ringbearing character, save Gandalf, and he never covets the thing, and even once he has it, he doesn't really want what it is showing him. He's very remarkable.

I don't think he has low self-esteem as some suggested...While he suborns himself to Frodo, he certainly has no problem standing up to authority figures, ie Aragorn, and speaking his mind even to his 'betters,' including Frodo. He doesn't think he's very bright, true, but I think that's part of the humbleness that made his character so endearing. (And really, he's not a genius.) And obviously the Gaffer did something right, because, dude, Sam saved the world.

:)

Posted by Teshi @ 2001 Jun 14 11:19 AM EST

Thanks Phil-Ever since seeing her stuff, I've become a huge fan of hers. I use her pics as backgrounds for my comp a lot.

Hey, my sister is another amazing artist too. Her tolkien stuff is on http://home.paxway.com/MedievalCourt under Tolkien Art, I think. She takes LOTR movie pics and redoes them in pencil.

Help anyone! My comp won't let me into TORn!!!!!!! I haven't seen it in two days!!!!!!

Posted by talierin @ 2001 Jun 14 11:22 AM EST

RE: Tolkien Artists

My personal favourite, just barely ahead of John Howe and Alan Lee, is Ted Naismith. His landscapes are fantastic, I have trouble believing they are not photos due to the perfection and realism (not sure this is a word). His portrayal of characters sometimes lets him down however, particularly with hobbits, but he's still the man for me.
I'm particularly looking forward to adding next years Tolkien calendar to my collection, as it is illustrated by none other than Ted himself.

Posted by Annatar The fair @ 2001 Jun 14 11:25 AM EST

Does anybody know if Joseph Campbell, the late expert on mythology, ever wrote anything about LOTR? I know he spent some time studying the Star Wars stories as modern mythology and had some really groovy ideas about them, so I gotta assume he would have something to add to LOTR discussions.

Posted by Dan @ 2001 Jun 14 11:27 AM EST

Must...resist..temptation to start Sam arguement...again....

*phew* just managed to hold back! I'm sure everyone is relieved. ;-)>

Anyhow, on the issue of artists. I don't personally care much for Eissmann's art. I like her use of watercolors, but her people all look pretty much the same to me (all having the same strange proportions as well), and there's never anything that really grabs me about the pictures. All the same, I wish I could draw that well!

Personally, my very favorite pictures are by Michael Kaluta. He only did 12, for the 93 Tolkien calendar, but I really like them. Particularly his depictions of Aragorn and Arwen, and of Eowyn and the Witch King. There are, arguably, still some spoilers, so be careful about looking at the pics Deb!

http://fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images.php?collection=kaluta&ca=1&offset=0

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 14 11:33 AM EST

Here the link for Ted Nasmith's work. Again beware spoilers.

http://fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images.php?collection=nasmith&ca=1&offset=0

I'm suprised to find so many pictures. A fair few I haven't seen before.

Posted by Annatar The Fair @ 2001 Jun 14 11:43 AM EST

I didn't care for Eissmann's art either. Her Elves didn't look anything like Elves to me. No hint of them being fair to look at at all. Also, despite the person who posted the link saying that they were dead acurate because she read the passages first, please tell me why her Sindar have brown hair? No Elf in Tolkien's work has brown hair. As matter of fact Beleg, who she does several pictures of should have black hair as per the text. Her perspective is also off, wich causes some of the peices to look very twisted at incorrect angles.
Her backgrounds are very beautiful and detailed though and she definitely has a talent in the use of water color.

Posted by J'nae Rae Campbell @ 2001 Jun 14 11:47 AM EST

I agree with you about Naismith, Annatar. I especially love "Rivendell" and "Green Hill Country". He captures the landscapes perfectly, in my opinion.

Posted by Tom @ 2001 Jun 14 12:16 PM EST

Talierin--
I was having trouble getting into TORN, too, so I typed "theonering" into a search engine and was able to get into it that way. Also, I now skip writing the "www" in the address and it seems to work! Who knows...
--Nywoe

Posted by Nywoe @ 2001 Jun 14 12:18 PM EST

I´m fond of Inger Edelfelt´s pictures, don´t know if they´re at Rolonzo (and won´t check either, having only modem-connection and paying per minute)

Posted by Ioreth @ 2001 Jun 14 12:18 PM EST

POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR SILMARILLION

Regarding the Eagles: If I recall correctly, Tolkien writes elsewhere that the Eagles are Maiar embodied, which is why, among other things, they can talk. They are servants of Manwë.

Gandalf and his fellow Istari are the Valar's representatives in the struggle against Sauron, and even Gandalf does not oppose him directly, but by inspiring and leading the Children of Illùvatar.

Therefore, the Eagles do not interfere much in the struggle against Sauron: it's not their job. The occasions on which they enter into the picture in LotR (setting aside the Hobbit, in which Tolkien is much less consistent, in my opinion) are to rescue Gandalf from Orthanc (to allow him to continue his task), and to rescue the Ringbearers (because the task is now accomplished).

Or at least that's what I think.

Posted by Jonathan @ 2001 Jun 14 12:21 PM EST

My favorite artwork is the stuff done by the prof. himself, but I can hardly ever find it anywhere. Does anybody know where I can find a book or website showcasing Tolkien's art?
Thanks!

Posted by Nywoe @ 2001 Jun 14 12:21 PM EST

Debbie has gotten far enough through LotR that I think it's finally reasonable to mention the various Tolkien Frequently Asked Questions lists here (though it's still probably best to avoid them until you've finished the whole story!) These FAQs were written by participants in the Tolkien Usenet newsgroups, and can be found on those groups or online at

http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/

The order that they are listed on my page is probably the best reading order, although those who are not participating in the newsgroups could easily skip straight to the "Debates and Discussions" section of my Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ without missing too much.

The immediate inspiration for posting the link is Teshi's question about the Eagles. As you might imagine, quite a few people have asked the same question before, and there isn't any single answer that everyone accepts as the "right" one. The Tolkien Newsgroup FAQ gives a brief discussion of the various answers that are often suggested.

Posted by Steuard @ 2001 Jun 14 12:22 PM EST

For some amusement, here are possibly the worst (or, at least, the wierdest) Tolkien images around...

http://fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images.php?collection=ezpeleta

and here are some of the prof's pics. I like the charm of his crayon and watercolor work, but (as he said himself) he couldn't draw bodies to save his life 8-)>

http://fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images.php?collection=tolkien

Oh, and I'm not sure that the eagles were actual Maiar spirits, but they were certainly Manwe's servants (or at least they used to be, when they were greater in the Elder Days). this is why they couldn't take the Ring to Mount Doom. Manwe's servants would no more help destroy the Ring than the Valar would take the Ring out of Middle Earth

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 14 12:25 PM EST

Wait--what's that about no elf having brown hair? What about Arwen? All that stuff about Galadriel being the morning and Arwen the evening, plus doesn't someone say her hair is "raven" colored? (pardon me, coloured) I'm not sure what colour nightengales(sp?) actually are, but she's supposed to be the spitting image of Luthien Tinuviel.

Posted by Kevin @ 2001 Jun 14 12:37 PM EST

the "raven" colored hair refers to the hair being dark black. Galadriel has blonde hair, some elves had silver. I can't remember if Tolkien ever included brown hair as an option for elves.

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 14 12:40 PM EST

I am glad to see people here talking about the Tolkien artists. My first memories of LOTR are of my mother reading me The Hobbit and the Hilldebrant calanders. I really like Howe and Lee but my favorite is Ted Nasmith. The painting of Gondolin when Tuor first sees it....takes my breath away. Especially since I just read the full story of "The Fall of Gondolin" in Unfinished Tales 2.

I have see few pictures that live up to my view of elves IMHO ....does anyone know of some pictures (or artists) that capture the real beauty of the elves?

Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 14 12:50 PM EST

check out this one by Kaluta. I think Arwen looks great, personally (though many have disagreed). If not that, then I just look at pictures of Audrey Hepburn. That's about as close to elvish as I need to get 8-)>

http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/kaluta/elessar.jpg

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 14 12:54 PM EST

I'm not certain either about the Eagles being Maiar, but the Encyclopedia of Arda states that they "carried spirits akin to the Maiar".

Posted by Jonathan @ 2001 Jun 14 12:56 PM EST

well, yeah, all those things (like Orome's horses, Manwe's eagles, etc...) had great, imperishable spirits, but weren't as powerful as Maiar I'm sure. Its all just differences in nomenclature though, I suppose 8-)>

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 14 01:04 PM EST

Looking through Ted's work just now on Rolozo I've noticed it's not just his landscapes that are fantastic but the life he gives to them with the application of wind, rain, snow, lava, steam, living clouds and other such features / weather effects.
His images of Mordor do not just consist of dark colours in an attempt to make a painting look gloomy. They emminate malice and the promise of hidden dangers.

Posted by Annatar The Fair @ 2001 Jun 14 01:07 PM EST

Nywoe:There's a book on Tolkien's art at Barnes & Noble, I can't remember the name, but it's something like JRR Tolkien Artist and Illustrator.

My favorite illustrations besides Tolkien's were always the Hildebrandts. I have all their calendars from the 1970s and 80s. Some of them are in a book called "From Tolkien to Oz" or somethink like that. (I love the Oz illustrations too.)

Tom and Talierin: I was suprised to see that there are three of us here from Colorado. Statistically interesting, when there seem to be about forty folks here from all over the world. I was hiking along Glacier Creek in Rocky Mountain yesterday, and saw some bear scat. I was on the lookout for bears, but grateful that I didn't have to be on the lookout for orcs. :-) The golden banner were in bloom, just like fields of elanor, but to my astonishment it was also snowing like mad (at only 8000 feet). Very strange and beautiful.

Welcome back Debbie, and thanks again for a great site. I definitely would read the Hobbit when you're done here. I read the Silmarillion once, but haven't been drawn to it again, and I think that's because the landscape is the big draw for me, and he doesn't take much time for it in the Silmarillion. It does have some great characters, though.

I always loved this chapter, the sense of comfort after such a grueling ordeal, and the description of the music taking them to a place where joy and sorrow were the same (I can't remember it quite right, but it was great.) Kind of an Easter morning feel to it.

Posted by Karen @ 2001 Jun 14 01:08 PM EST

apart from the clothes, THIS is my mental picture of most elves, dark-haired, fair-skinned, grey-eyed, powerful ...
http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/edelfeldt/legolas.jpg
Inger Edelfelt ...

Posted by Ioreth @ 2001 Jun 14 01:32 PM EST

Karen,
Unfortunately I am not living in Colorado any more, but I grew up there and it will always be "home". I'm in Washington now, which also has plenty of Middle Earth loveliness of it's own.

Posted by Tom @ 2001 Jun 14 01:43 PM EST

Karen.

Here's the quote you were talking about. I love this one!

And he sang to them, now in the Elven-tongue, now in the speech of the West, until their hearts, wounded with sweet words, overflowed, and their joy was like swords, and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness.

Just so you know, I got it from
http://greenbooks.theonering.net/quickbeam/files/080100.html

which has a whole bunch of great Tolkien quotes. (May contain SPOILERS!)

Posted by Don @ 2001 Jun 14 01:50 PM EST

Thanks Ioreth....I had never seen that picture before. Apart from the clothes it's not bad. The thing I find that I don't like about it (and most others) is that the elves look pissed off and still don't look like they are a more meautiful race than humans.

I know I'm being picky and/or negative about most of these really great works of art but I have always imagined the beauty elves to be well above that of people. Although the good art does usually try to show elves with deep, penatrating eyes. Which is pretty cool.

I really like the clips of the movies where elves are shown as if light is shinning on them more that the others. (Even though Legolas is not a high elf of the light) it helps to set elves apart from the other characters.

Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 14 02:02 PM EST

Nasmith, Howe, and Lee, are all brilliant artists. That's why they do the calendars. I find it interesting to see many different interpretations of events, places, characters, races, etc. because the own images in my mind are never static. Sure, I prefer some to others, but, in my opinion, minute details don't really matter. I've never heard of brown haired elves, but that doesn't exclude them. I've never read a reference to Tolkien's elves having pointy ears. Nasmith is sometimes criticised for his pointy-eared elves, but it's still great art.

The most interesting thing about Eissman's art, I find, is the similarity between Elves and men. After reading LOTR, you have the impression that humans and elves are easily distinguishable. However, most LOTR humans are "diluted" (forgive the use of the word). When reading the Silmarillion, I kept getting confused when some men were often mistaken for elves or vice-versa, and the only real evidence was in the eyes of the character. I thought "how could you mistake the two?!". But after reading more and thinking about it, I realised that the humans in the Silmarillion were amazing. Beren, Turin, Hurin, Tuor, Huor, etc. That's some serious human power there. To face up to Morgoth, you've got to have a lot of gall. Eismanns paintings showed me that maybe the elves and humans at this time were not so different. I think anyone's art is valuable, if for nothing else, it can make you think differently about anything.

Tom, Karen, Talierin - This is weird. I was born in Colorado. I'm in Nova Scotia now (Canada).

Talierin - thanks for the link to your sister's art. I like her Goldberry the best I think. :o)

Nywoe - Yes, there is a book called J.R.R. Tolkien Artist and Illustrator. Greenbooks has a good article on it at: http://greenbooks.theonering.net/turgon/files/110000.html
If you can't find it at your local bookstore (Growl, I couldn't yesterday!) you can order it from amazon ($20) or the newline shop ($25). The newline shop is more expensive, but you get the bonus letter from PJ thrown in.

Posted by Phil @ 2001 Jun 14 02:10 PM EST

people, do you think that we should all just move along the chapter forums with Debbie? i mean [to make it clearer!] we don't need to keep posting things in previous chapter 'cause that's just damn confusing, remembering which chapter had so many comments in order to check back.. *sigh*

about the Eagles being Maiar, why not. after all Gandalf himself is Maiar... i wonder what wiil P. Jackson do about the whole true identity of the Istari and how they are trully equal in nature with Sauron himself thingy. i remember how my perception of the events of the Lord of the Rings [let alone the Hobbit] changed when i read the Silmarillion!

ah! at last i remembered to ask! someone had mentioned, chapters ago, that as Tolkien intended LOTR to be a six book series, he had titles for each.. i think Book III was The Treason of Isengard? what are the rest? and am i wrong in supposing that the Hobbit would be included thus as the first book out of totally seven [as a prelude, in the same way "the magician's nephew" was written as a sort of prequel for C.S.Lewis's Narnia Chronicles(even though it was written before not after-oh good i am confused now!)]. or am i just being obsessive with the number seven.

*yiorgos slaps himself* time to shut up now- heh.

Posted by yiorgos @ 2001 Jun 14 02:21 PM EST

Tolkien only decided the eagles might be embodied maiar after he'd finished writing LoTR, while he was trying to systemise his work. He had problems with the notion though.

Tolkien's original notion, which he held at the time this chapter was written, was that the eagles contained spirits akin in their origins to the ents. As the ents are to trees so the eagles are to normal animals.

Eagles had a long history of arriving at the last moment in Tolkien's works but they took little part in the fighting, like the ents. Men and elves are not their main concern.

The eagles also act as messengers of Manwe, chief of the Valar, which gives all their actions a tinge of divine sanction, and restricts their freedom of action.

There are two main story internal problems with flying the ring to Mordor, even if the eagles agreed to. One is that the eagles aren't immune to the lure of the ring. More importantly, eagles would be quite conspicious. If Sauron noticed them they be met by nine flying nazgul, who would not be easily passed.

Posted by Robert @ 2001 Jun 14 02:24 PM EST

Great chapter!! Great chapters to come!! (I don't think they're slow!) :-) Can't wait to see what you think of them-- really enjoying the journey!

Posted by E. Gamgee @ 2001 Jun 14 02:33 PM EST

Talierin,
Wow! your sister is quite talented.
And yes, Phil, it is a little odd that several of us are or were from Colorado. Something in the air there that just instills a love of LOTR perhaps...

Posted by Tom @ 2001 Jun 14 02:38 PM EST

I've noticed that Eissmann's art, you either like it or you don't. I like it, but my friend can't stand it. I think I like it for her detail on the clothes and stuff, not her faces. Faces are not her strong point, but she has said that she's still working on them. Yes, some of her proportions are off, but do you know how hard it is to get something in proportion? About me saying that she's highly accurate, and then J'nae saying that there was a few mistakes, she gets pretty close though, better than most I've seen. I'll never forget this one pic I saw of Éowyn wearing full medieval armor and with short hair.

Posted by talierin @ 2001 Jun 14 02:38 PM EST

Must be the altitude up here that gives us a love of LOTR. But that can't be right, because my friend read LOTR and hated it. Anyway, I love Colorado!!! And the Broncos!!!!!! heehee

Posted by talierin @ 2001 Jun 14 02:50 PM EST

Since we seem to be on the subject of artists... Has anyone ever seen a truly good picture drawn of an Ent? I havent seen too many that I can say are satisfying... and this is a huge concern! If they get this wrong in the films it is a major problem. All the attempts I have seen seem to make the Ents look too much like hairy, old humans. In my mind, Ents are supposed to be far more "tree-ish". Also, I have seen many attempts at Ents that have little, beady human-being like eyes! This is clearly wrong... The eyes will have to be AMAZING looking to even come close to the description in the books. After all, Ent eyes convey even a sense of the enormous lifespan of the Ents... That will be tought to do visually. Now that I think about it, it is hard to picture in my mind exactly what an Ent should really look like- they seem almost more of a "force of nature" that individual beings... hmmm... is anyone else wondering/worried about this???

RChris

Posted by RChris @ 2001 Jun 14 03:11 PM EST

I liked the stylized depiction of Ents in David Day's (shudder) Tolkien Bestiary. But those wouldn't work rendered into real life. Kaluta's picture of the Entmoot has great ent bodies (very tree-ish, and clearly flexible only in the way that trees are) but terrible faces. If I remember correctly, Howe's drawings are the model for the ents in PJs films. Don't know that I like those pics enormously, but they'll look totally different in real life. It'll definitely be interesting to see - I'm sure there'll be a glimpse of them in the preview for Two Towers. Gosh only have to wait another damned year for that! Aggggh! (patience is wearing thin at this point - must see movies!)

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 14 03:16 PM EST

Hi, Debbie, what a surprise! 2 posts in such a short time! :o)

Really a joyful chapter. Nevertheless, I love this part:
„But the Nazgûl turned and fled, and vanished into Mordor's shadows, hearing a sudden terrible call out of the Dark Tower; and even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs were loosed. The Power
that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them; and now looking in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid.“
- that’s when I always want to cry ‘yes, yes, you black villains, now you’re done!’ :o)

And this:
“'Yes, I am with you, Master,' said Sam, laying Frodo's wounded hand gently to his breast. 'And you're with me. And the journey's finished. But after coming all that way I don't want to give up yet. It's not like me, somehow, if you understand.'“

There are so may things to react to that I decided to put only a short note to each:

Silmarien: Deus Ex Machina Airways??? LOL :o))))))))

Hobbit: Yes, it is much more a fairytale but I believe Debbie is going to love Bilbo immediately as he is a Pippin/Merry mixture, IMHO.

Debbie, jus like Big Mike posted, we knew and we still KNOW (ref. your last questions :o)

Ah, Debbie, warning here: don’t throw your hanky, it still would be useful :o)

Eagles: Someone said (Gandalf in The Hobbit perhaps?) that eagles seldom involve in men’s affairs. That’s the same reason why so little elves fought in this War of the Ring.

Illustrators: Well, yes, on Rolozo Tolkien there are many of them. I prefer Alan Lee and I’ve found all his illustrations to Hobbit on this site! (Not speaking about illustrations for LotR which I’d already known before.) So, my favourite is Alan Lee (I love his aquarelle technique! I’ve studied all his pictures.), John Howe follows. I love the landscapes of Nasmith but I don’t like his figures much (that’s what Annatar wrote). Concerning Eissmann’s pictures, I like the technique :o) and I don’t mind if there’s something not exactly according to the books. Its just her imagination. Well….I tried to make some pictures too myself :o) Only a pencil drawings. I’m lucky I don’t have my own web page so you can’t see them :o)))))

Ioreth, I like Legolas by Edelfeldt too thought I imagine him blond :o) But this is what I really call beautiful prince from fairytales :o) IMHO the beauty of elves is also in the way they behave, I mean the way they walk, the way they speak. I’ve read somewhere an interview with Orlando Bloom/Legolas. He said that it was difficult for him to play an elf as he should walk like a cat or like a ballet dancer and he almost fell down very often :o)
I don’t like elves from the coming film very much (fortunately the main elf characters are great, especially Galadriel and Elrond) but the rest…..:o(…. they all have the same hairstyle which irritates me :o)

Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 14 03:26 PM EST

Big Mike- Yeah, I'm always glad to see all four hobbits together and safe in this chapter, too, especially after being so terrified for Pippin the first time I read Book 5.

Teshi- "And obviously the Gaffer did something right, because, dude, Sam saved the world.". OK, I laughed out loud at that comment :). Right on.

Nathan- Hey, I'll debate Sam with you any time you like :). I still think that was one of the best threads we had going over on these boards. Made me think a lot.

Speaking of which...

yiorgos- Oh, I hope people -won't- stop posting to other threads just because we've moved on to another chapter! Many of those threads contain fascinating and intriguing topics of discussion and we usually meander off in another direction every time we move to a new chapter, inspired by the themes of that chapter. I love going back and seeing what thoughts people have added to discussions that went before and I hope people will keep coming across this board and doing that for months to come. To me it's worth sorting through the comments I've read and the ones I haven't.

E. Gamgee- I totally agree with you that Deb is going to love the chapters ahead. Maybe we've hit the end of the quest, but I love the fact that Tolkien lingers for several more chapters to totally explore how all the major characters are affected and/or changed by these defining moments in Middle-Earth.

Spoiler comment from the keeper of the editor's pen: I've been getting letters from people asking me to go back and edit out spoilers from earlier chapters for newcomers coming to Deb's board who haven't read LOTR before. I gotta say, this isn't what I signed on for and it could become a massive job! I'm still very happy to pull out spoilers from the chapters Debbie hasn't read yet to keep her journey pure, but those coming after her are on their own. Once Deb gets to the appendices, I hang up my editor's hat (at least until The Hobbit starts :)).

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 14 03:35 PM EST

yiorgos,

I think Nr. 7 are the appendixes. I've read it somewhere recently.

Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 14 03:36 PM EST

Oh, and another thing I like about this chapter that hasn't been mentioned yet- Legolas' song to the sea that he sings after the reunion of the Fellowship. Lovely verse, wistful and moving. It's one of my favorite poems in LOTR.

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 14 03:47 PM EST

Nathan-

I just looked at Howe's Treebeard picture on Rolozo. Closer, but still... In pondering it, it occurs to me that I never really thought of Treebeard as looking so much like an "old man". (I think Howe's idea here makes him look way too much like Gandalf! Especially the nose) I always pictured him as looking very much like a tree, less like a human, but kinda "timeless". After all, can you tell how old a healthy tree is by looking at it? Usually only by Howe (haha) big it is. Treebeard should look timeless, big and with "old eyes". Probably too much to ask...

Posted by RChris @ 2001 Jun 14 04:28 PM EST

Doesn't Tolkien use "old man" as a term to describe what Treebeard looked like? I can't remember, despite having read the chapter a couple days ago. I think so, though. Its interesting how people's personal images of these things diverge even from what Tolkien says.

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 14 04:57 PM EST

ooops! hit the post button too soon. Anyhow, I was going to say that, on rereading the books (again) I noticed that my personal images rarely coincide too closely with Tolkien's descriptions. What he writes is a starting point, but then my brain kinda takes things from there. For one thing, I never envision Boromir with long black hair. I couldn't tell you why, though

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 14 04:58 PM EST

For that matter, Tom Bombadil is called "oldest" but I don't picture him *looking* old in the slightest. I think the most important thing about Treebeard is that he's covered in moss.

Posted by Kevin @ 2001 Jun 14 05:01 PM EST

Re: Brown-haired Elves

In HistM-E, it's mentioned that Maedhros, eldest son of Feanor, inherited the rare "nut-brown hair of Nerdanel's kin" (Nerdanel being his mother). So at least some elves had brown hair, though it was rare enough to be remarked upon. He was even given the nick-name "Russendol" (copper-top), sorta like calling someone "Red" because of their hair.

Re: Pointed Ears

I think I remember reading somewhere, maybe in the Letters, that Tolkien stated that elves had a slight point to the ear. Enough I suppose to be noticeable, but not as much as a Vulcan's! ;)

Posted by Kendra Malm @ 2001 Jun 14 07:02 PM EST

Wow! I've been "un-connected" for a day and it took me 1,5 hours to read through the posts! A lot of interesting thoughts and information! :) I especially appreciate all the links to illustrations. I used to stay away from almost all illustrations to LotR. I wanted to keep the home made ones in my head intact, and the paintings I saw ususally disappointed me. But now with the movies coming and all, what the heck! It will have to wait though, I'm temporarily on a slow modem right now.

So much has been said about these chapters already. I just want to add that I think it is such a touching moment when Sam hears the song about Nine Finger Frodo and bursts into tears. After all those days of darkness and despair, keeping up his hopes even when he and Frodo were beyond hope, Sam finally is safe enough to crack up. Dear, dear Sam.

Thanks Debbie for keeping the posts flowing again! Your effort is sure appreciated!

Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 14 07:24 PM EST

Allison:
". . .but I love the fact that Tolkien lingers for several more chapters to totally explore how all the major characters are affected and/or changed by these defining moments in Middle-Earth." Right on!!

Re: Brown-haired elves
In my mind Legolas was always a blond!!

Re: Treebeard
Like balrogs, the Nine's flying steeds, and orcs, I could never get too clear a picture of Treebeard in my head-- but I imagine him very "treeish". :-) It will certainly be interesting to see what he looks like in the movie!!! (I am NOT going to make it until December. . . . . .)

Posted by E. Gamgee @ 2001 Jun 14 08:42 PM EST

I never really saw Legolas as one hair color or another, but definitely saw Boromir and Faramir with very dark brown hair (maybe not jet black)

Posted by Sarah @ 2001 Jun 14 09:38 PM EST

I love how life interweaves: today I discovered that my manager is totally enchanted by the Harry Potter books (currently reading the second one). Since she is a devout lady, I asked how she felt about the magic... She chooses not to pay attention to the silliness about magic and thinks the books terrific. But that lead to a discussion of LOTR. She is quite excited about the idea of both movies.

The essence we came to was that both these series in very different ways, encourage strong values and _the work to live up to them_. The Hobbits especially just keep on in the face of "certain" doom, doing what is right, what is good, what needs to be done, and disregarding their personal petty preferences. This essential nobility shown by Frodo and Sam in particular, makes these books very special.

Posted by judith @ 2001 Jun 14 10:24 PM EST

Re The Hobbit

I came to Tolkien at an older age than most of you seem to have, and read LOTR first. I then read Silmarillion and THEN The Hobbit. I was a little disconcerted at first by the lighter style of writing but found it worth it in the end if just for the pre-history of Middle Earth.

Will Debbie be keeping a diary of that reading too?

Posted by Silmarien @ 2001 Jun 14 11:34 PM EST

Just read over at TORN that someone is bringing out another issue of "Bored of the Rings".

Posted by Silmarien @ 2001 Jun 14 11:56 PM EST

Re: The Hobbit
I loved it! It is definitly lighter reading than LOTR, but still wonderful. It is very funny in some spots-- I especially like the dwarves and the ending, but can't say more for fear of spoilers.

I recently read Tolkien's 'Father Christmas Letters' and really enjoyed them. Loved his drawings, too. Wish he'd drawn more LOTR picts than he did!

This is such a great site, Debbie! Can't wait to see your take on the wonderful upcoming chapters!!

Posted by E. Gamgee @ 2001 Jun 15 12:53 AM EST

Hey, did anyone notice up on TORN that Eowyn's lead on the poll is dwindling?? :-( (Maybe I shouldn't bring THAT subject up again. . . . :-))

And Teshi, loved ". . .because, dude, Sam saved the world." Right on!!

Posted by E. Gamgee @ 2001 Jun 15 12:57 AM EST

LOL, well, it's true. Of all the characters in the book, I do find Sam the most impressive, largely because he started off servile and ended up the hero. Lovely character development, and it flowed totally naturally...Pippin's still my favorite character, though :)

Ooh, interesting ideas on the Eagles. I had not considered those things...the Eagles don't smack of deus ex machina now...well, not as much, anyway :)

Posted by Teshi @ 2001 Jun 15 01:08 AM EST

On the subject of artists, I've always liked Rodney Matthews - he's not done much LotR stuff, but I think his depiction of Rivendell is beautiful (it can be found on the rolozo site). Some of his other stuff is amazing - my favourite pictures of all time are Storytellers Night (ftp://ftp.sunet.se/pub/pictures/fantasy/Rodney.Matthews/pic7.jpg) - not directly Tolkien related, but surely inspired by the great man, and Sanctuary (sorry don't know a link for that)

Posted by Andy @ 2001 Jun 15 03:57 AM EST

E. Gamgee, you'll have to wait even longer than that since you won't see the ents until the second movie...

Posted by Pepijn Schmitz @ 2001 Jun 15 07:18 AM EST

Andy,

well, the Storyteller's Night is nice and the Rivendell is beautifull, although it is not exactly what I like most. I love Alan Lee because his pictures are very realistic - they look as if he painted them according to a real model. They don't look like "fantasy", if you know what I mean :o) The paintings by Matthews are, on the other hand, typical fantasy, IMHO, I can't imagine such landscape to be real.

Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 15 09:18 AM EST

So some of the Noldor had Brown hair in HoME. I haven't read all of those yet. However, as those are rough drafts and were chaged over a course of years, I only count "The Silmarillion," "The Hobbit," and "The Lord of Rings." The only colors mentioned for Elves in those are black, silver, and gold.

As to the pointed ear question, I can't remember the exact quote, but it came from one Tolkien's letters, to the effect that the word for hear had the base for leaf suggesting that the Elves ears were slightly pointed like a leafs. In an other instant when he was asked what a Hobbit looked like he replied, "I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of "fairy" rabbit as some of my reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomache, shortish in the leg. A round jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and "elvish" hair short and curling...."(letters, #27) You get the picture?

Posted by J'nae Rae Campbell @ 2001 Jun 15 10:19 AM EST

Well, I've got hair that looks pretty blackish, but my mother always insisted it was dark brown! So I pretty much think of black and brown as the same color (in hair).

Is it Tolkien's emphasis on racial purity that makes the hair question so important?

Someone said there would be a new 'Bored of the Rings.' I don't know about y'all, but I thought the first one was worthless.

Posted by Kevin @ 2001 Jun 15 10:45 AM EST

I don't think is a new Bored of the Rings, I just think its the old one being reissued. I think it had its funny points, but it really dragged on a lot. For some reason, it really reminds me of Ralph Bakshi's even more absurd movie entitled "Wizards" Scary

Posted by Nathan @ 2001 Jun 15 10:51 AM EST

Debbie, I can't tell you how much I have LOVED reading this journal of yours. It's wonderful to see a new fan rising up.

I grinned from ear to ear after learning that you intend to go back and re-read some of the exposition that you panned in the begining. As for myself - the day I finished LOTR, I started over again that very evening! I was in seventh grade at the time: I am now 36 and still re-read LOTR every year. I couldn't tell you how much it has influenced the person I am. It gives you such a clear picture of what truth, loyalty and honor in the face of obsticles should be.
If only more people had such devotion to doing the right thing even when it may kill you....

Oh yeah, and I also loved your poem to Bill the pony. First you said you didn't understand all the singing and poetry - then you started penning your own Ode to Bill.

Go girl, GO!!!

Posted by Cindy @ 2001 Jun 15 10:56 AM EST

Don: Thanks for the quote. Describing music in print is so hard, and Tolkien does it so well.

I've been meaning to ask you guys your opinion: I'm just finishing Book 2 in my 21st reading, and thinking about trying something somebody at TORN suggested a while back: reading the rest of it out of order (not recommended for a first reading, of course.) I can't remember which order they suggested. I'm thinking of following Frodo and Sam all the way to the Field of Cormallen, and then going back and picking up with Aragorn & Co. back at Amon Hen, or should I do it the other way around? It's the same choice Aragorn had to make at the end of Book 2: go with Frodo to Mordor, or go on to Minas Tirith. I'm thinking of starting with Frodo and Sam, since that's who we're with at the end of Book 2. Anyway, I suppose I could always do it the other way around on my 22nd reading... What do you think?

Posted by Karen @ 2001 Jun 15 12:45 PM EST

Karen,

I would go the other way, read the Aragorn part first and then Frodo and Sam's part. I say this because Frodo and Sam have the Climax. I did not see that article on TORN so I can't say how they suggested to do it.

Let us know what it's like either way.

Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 15 01:19 PM EST

I kinda like this picture of treebeard (or barbalbero), actually, though i'm sure many of you will disagree:

http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/spacapan/Barbalbero.jpg

looks like a tree, weird eyes...

also in reference to comments about eissman, regardless of how good or bad i think her art is, what is the dealio with placing so much importance on proportion. i mean, come one, are we still in the renaissance? this is the 21st century. proportionality ceased to become an artistic concern at the *earliest* when picasso debuted "les demoiselles d'avignon" in 1907 or whenever that was.

it's called "abtraction" or "expressionism." it's an emotional expression of a scene, as opposed to a scientific, photorealistic or whatever description. fantasy art seems to usually fall into a sort of cheesy, opulent, overly romanticized, and "realistic" attempt to deliniate a scene, placing it squarely in the 17th century, although with far less aesthetic and technical skill than those guys. abstraction and expressionism seems to lend itself perfectly to fantasy. i'm thinking maybe of like weird eastern european drawing and animation (czech, russian, polish).

anyway, i apologize for this long, tangential, masturbatory rant.

i'm an idiot.

Posted by poussin @ 2001 Jun 15 01:22 PM EST

i meant at the *latest*.

god, what an idiot.

Posted by poussin @ 2001 Jun 15 01:25 PM EST

Karen: Heh, to be honest, I can't remember the last time I actually read LOTR from Book 1, Chapter 1 to Book 6, Chapter 9. It's only rarely that I sit myself down to read the book cover to cover anymore. Starting in Book 1 will usually remind me of something in Book 4 and send me flipping there, which will remind me of something in Book 6 which will send me to Book 2 until I remember I'm -supposed- to be back reading Book 1 :).

Another favorite exercise of mine, especially when I'm interested in gaining insight into a particular LOTR character, is to walk through the book following just the path, perspective and words of that character. Very enlightening, especially when your friend keeping a popular on-line Tolkien journal is trying to figure out just what you see in certain characters :). (meaning I've done that with both Merry and Frodo to help with my commentary since Deb began her journal here)

Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 15 01:33 PM EST

Pepijn: I know *sigh*. No Treebeard until the second movie-- I was rather unclear in my post!!

Deb: I can't wait to hear what you think of all our ranting and raving about winged/wingless balrogs, good old Sam's decisions, blond/dark-haired Legolas. . . . And I can't wait until you read some of the fantastic chapters coming up! :-) Go Debbie!!

Posted by E. Gamgee @ 2001 Jun 15 01:50 PM EST

I didn't find Bored of the Rings to be funny, but more importantly I didn't even think it was satire. The book ignores all of the themes and characteristics of characters, events and things in LOTR that make it LOTR, I guess figuring that it would be close enough just to call some characters wizards and elves and make puns on characters' names. Apart from the most superficial details, there's nothing about LOTR even recognizable in BOTR. I thought it stank.

Posted by Kevin @ 2001 Jun 15 02:12 PM EST

Back to the Led Zepplin Comments...I always thought the "Battle of Evermore" was a good one:

"The Queen of Light took her bow and then she turned to go.
The Prince of Peace embraced the gloom and walked the night alone.

...War is the common cry; pick up your swords and fight.

The sky is filled with good and bad that mortals never know.

...Oh well, the night is long, the beads of time pass slow,

Tired eyes on the sunrise waiting for the Eastern glow

The pain of war cannot exceed the woe of aftermath.

The drums will shake the castle wall.

The Ringwraiths riding black. Ride on.

Sing as you raise your bow, shoot straighter than before...

No comfort has the fire at night that lights the face so cold

The magic runes are writ in gold to bring the balance back."

Posted by Peril @ 2001 Jun 15 04:31 PM EST

I thoroughly enjoy Bored of the Rings. The book is a parody, not a satire and so is meant simply to be a rollicking (sp?) good time at the expense of the good professor's creation. I think they capture the spirit of the book quite well, and then turn it upside down and shake it. The writers even admit up front that the book was simply a way to make a fast buck (ka-ching!). I suppose enjoying Monty Python's Flying Circus and Firesign Theater come from the same warped sense of humor.

Hey! I, also, live in Colorado.

Posted by Steve B @ 2001 Jun 15 05:41 PM EST

My library doesn't have Bored of the Rings, so I can't read it.(I don't want to buy it) :-( maybe they'll get it some day.

Hey Steve, where do you live in CO? I'm just west of Denver in Lakewood.

Posted by Talierin @ 2001 Jun 15 06:15 PM EST

Kevin,
No, it had nothing to do with racial purity. My argument was that several of Eissmann's Sindar had light brown hair. Especialy Beleg, who's hair was definitely black in the book. Tolkien actually painted a picture of him with black hair.

Posted by J'nae Rae Campbell @ 2001 Jun 16 01:24 AM EST

at the risk of offending any lovers of Bored of the rings, I found it a horrible book ... humour at the level of early teenagers ... more than half of the "jokes" only accessible to people very familiar with american culture and american products ... etc etc .. No, didn´t like it at all the one time I tried reading it ...
I just found it an insult ...

My 2 öre ...

Posted by Ioreth @ 2001 Jun 16 02:00 AM EST

I mostly agree about Bored of the Rings - I read it because I'd seen some very funny quotes from it. My opinion of it now is that it is 98% inanity, sprinkled with a few very funny quotes.

If you think you might enjoy a parody of LotR, but one done with more care, check out

http://www.speakeasy.org/~ohh/book/

Just like Tolkien's translation of the Red Book, this one has its own "meta-fiction" of being an e-text for LotR, but that "Slight changes from the original text are inevitable":

"The Ring!" Frodo said, looking at the mantel with astonishment. "Has he left me that?"
"He has," Gandalf replied, "though you'll have to find a new chain. But if I may counsel you in the use of your own - don't use it! Now or later! It may have other powers besides quick and easy seduction."

Posted by Olorin @ 2001 Jun 16 03:28 AM EST

"Now those who refuse to purchase J. R. R. Tolkien's epic novel "Lord of the Rings" in print form, but are seeking an electronic copy to download instead, can get exactly what they deserve!"

LOL :-D

I enjoy the entire Tolkien Sarcasm Page, especially the review of Ralph Bakshi's movie "Lord of the Rings." Right on!

Posted by Raych @ 2001 Jun 16 08:37 AM EST

Just have to respond to a comment on the ents. Someone wondered how one could tell how old a healthy tree is. As trees age they gain in stature, but also in character - just as people do. Truly ancient trees do, in fact, look ancient. Surviving for hundreds or thousands of years leaves it's impression. Tolkien suggests this by describing Treebeard first as "an old stump" when the hobbits are too far away to see how tall he is. He must have wrinkled, weathered skin too - as opposed to the younger ents who have snoother skin/bark. For the movie I agree the eyes are very important. I hope a sense of ancient, patient wisdom is portrayed, but I'm not sure my mind's eye can be pleased by another's depiction.

Posted by Christopher B. @ 2001 Jun 16 01:45 PM EST

Found this VERY cool image of the eagles coming to rescue Sam and Frodo.... Enjoy!

http://www1.tolkienonline.com/gallery/gallery_item.cfm?ID=387

Posted by Sirelle @ 2001 Jun 21 09:52 AM EST