I like Eowyn's character even more in this chapter. It's pretty clear she's very frustrated at being confined to sickbed instead of going to battle, and also with the lack of information about the war. Had to smile at her reference to "the women" as if she was not one of them (and in truth, she is nothing like them):
Ho! I was quite surprised and delighted by the romantic spark between Eowyn and Faramir. I can't recall who said this in a past message board, but I have to agree with them that Faramir is the male heartthrob of the book, at least for me. :-) He may not be as showy and visible as Aragorn, but he's more down-to-earth and appealing. A pity he won't be in the first movie. :\ His answer to Eowyn's inquiry about how she could ease his care was definitely at least a 9 out of 10 in the romantic speech department:
What a triumphant moment with the Eagle comes with news of Sauron's downfall! Woohoo, I could almost hear the town bells ringing and people cheering.
And then Eowyn wisely gives up her yearning for Aragorn and falls for Faramir instead, yay! What a perfect resolution to that potentially awkward problem. Although I would have been happy if Eowyn and Aragorn got hooked up, I would have felt for poor loyal Arwen. Plus I'm sure Galadriel would have been slightly ticked off as well.
Speaking of Galadriel, I'm mightily disappointed we didn't see more of her. :-(
But that sort of thing was inevitable, I suppose, as I got to like more and more of the LOTR characters. If I had my way, they'd all be in every chapter, and then things would get way too cluttered and confusing, wouldn't they?
Amusing to see Ioreth speaking in awed tones to her kinswoman about the hobbits, "princes of great fame, it is said".
So Gandalf is taking off, hm? I wonder where he's going? Perhaps another adventure? Or to rest in happy retirement in the Shire?
And still several chapters to go...I'm highly curious about what could be left to happen in the story that hasn't happened already. I do hope we get to see Sam plant his Elven earth.
Replies: 58 comments
Wow! First! LOVE this chapter. *contented sigh* So wonderful for a hopless romantic like myself! :-)
More wonderful parts coming up. . . You'll have to keep on reading!!
Posted by E. Gamgee @ 2001 Jun 15 04:57 PM EST
One of my favorite moments in LOTR is when Eowyn falls for Faramir. It's the one little bit of "romance" (not counting Aragorn and Arwen, whose relationship is all pretty much off-stage), and I think Tolkien handled it very satisfyingly, in context of the overall tone of the story. Seeing Eowyn's character transform in this one brief chapter shows what a master story teller Tolkien really was. After all Faramir has gone through, it warms my heart to see him achieve some peace and happiness. He is one of my very favorite characters in the story.
I too was a little disappointed that Galadriel was not present in these later chapters, but you're right that things would get a bit crowded if every character was in every scene. :-) I don't want to say anything more for fear of spoilers, but be assured that there is much left of great interest in the remaining chapters.
Posted by Jeff B @ 2001 Jun 15 04:58 PM EST
And again, I just like how all the characters in the book link together so nicely. Gandalf convinces Elrond to let Merry and Pippin become members of the Fellowship. Merry's destiny will be to save Eowyn on the Pelennor Fields. Pippin's destiny will be to save Faramir by alerting Gandalf to Denethor's plans. And during their healing Eowyn and Faramir will find each other. LOTR has so many satisfying moments like that, especially as all the threads twine together in these final chapters.
And possibly the most romantic line in LOTR: "And he took her in his arms and kissed her under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many." Sigh... isn't that a romantic image?
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 15 05:04 PM EST
Hope you are all recovered and enjoying yourself Debbie! (and thanks for bailing us all out of Mordor :)
That scene upon the high walls with Eowyn and Faramir is very touching and creates a strong image in my mind. The bells indeed seem to ring out from the page with joy at the news. I liked also the image of Sauron's passing and the "tremor" that runs through the earth. Got to laugh at your angst about dear old Bill.
Posted by Christopher B. @ 2001 Jun 15 05:04 PM EST
Debbie's read another chapter - what a pleasant surprise for a Friday afternoon!
I remember this romance taking me *completely* off-guard and I, too, loved the way the Professor did this. In fact, that's one of the things I always liked about LotR - the surprises. Even my friends telling me (and telling me, and telling me) to read this story, didn't prepare me for what it really was and the effect it would have on me - and that was perhaps the biggest surprise.
Keep reading, keep posting! Love the latest cartoon!
Posted by Jan @ 2001 Jun 15 05:10 PM EST
I always enjoyed the fact that Eowyn and Faramir end up finding each other... of all the characters in the books they seem the most "in need" at the conclusion of the quest... Eowyn has lost her father-figure and knows she has no hope of getting Aragorn; poor Faramir has lost his whole family (and no small number of friends too, I'd wager).
Critics have often pointed to the "unrealistic and unbelievable" rapidity with which the two fall for one another. But I think it was the Professor himself who answered these criticisms by pointing to the emotional intensity that often comes with impending peril. If anyone doubts that the prospect of sudden death and destruction causes the flame of love to burn brighter, just think of the number of war brides that came back with returning soldiers after WWII (never mind the baby boom that soon followed).
Posted by Franc @ 2001 Jun 15 05:43 PM EST
I, too, was curious at this point in the book. Couldn't figure out just what could be in those last few chapters....
Posted by Lila Knotwise of Whitfurrows @ 2001 Jun 15 05:47 PM EST
jan:
a pleasant suprise indeed! only that where i live, it's always past midnight when Debbie posts and so i tend to get disjointed about whether to wait for a new post or not- it's times like this i wish the earth was flat! no sweat though, i just have to subtract 7 from the time here [approximately anyway, i'm not aware of where in the US Debbie lives] and it's fine! what does EST mean actually?
to all:
ahhh! Eowyn and Faramir *sigh*. my favourite couple. i remember falling for Eowyn when i first read LOTR, but now i find myself falling for Faramir as well! ;]
*chuckle* seriously now, if there's one incident of romance directed to the reader, that's Eowyn and Faramir. the way i see it, the Aragorn and Arwen plot serves as an echo of a mythical idealised fairy tale, and maybe that's what the Proffesor intended with them. think about it, Aragorn is THE_FLAWLESS_HERO, Arwen is THE_LOVELY_PATIENT_GOODY_TWO_SHOES_PRINCESS, and their love story is distanced from us by not appearing in the novel, except perhaps as "Here is the story of King Elessar and Arwen Undomiel".
that's why Faramir and Eowyn were created IMHO. in the same way that the Hobbits provide the reader's viewpoint while Gandalf and Legolas and Gimli and Aragorn go off slaying orcs and being majestic and heroic, so Faramir and Eowyn represent romantic love in the human sense. the attraction between Aragorn and Arwen seems to be more due to destiny, fate, as star-crossed lovers. [after all, he is the Heir of Isildur and she is one of the Eldar]. with Faramir and Eowyn though the reader gets to know the romantic attitudes of both, and gets a better chance of identifying with the story. one can feel Eowyn's indignation at having to stay behind in Rohan [imagine if the story, instead of describing the Siege of Gondor, and the Battle of Pelenor, and the defeat of the Witch-King, went on istead with how the women of Rohan had tea every night and fed the kids (not the goats, the children), and you'll see how she felt!] and you can't help feeling for Faramir when he is wounded despite his valour in battle [while perfect Mr.Aragorn "I_am_the_King!" son of Arathorn is never even scratched].
do not suppose that i have a reason not to like Aragorn and Arwen, my sarcasm serves only my point! it's just that the Royal Couple of Gondor [oh come on, that's not a spoiler, as if we don't KNOW how THESE two will end up!] are there more to be looked up to, and seen as last remrants of the glory of the Elves and the Numenoreans, of the First and Second Ages, while Faramir and Eowyn are there for us to warm to, as they are imperfect, human, and thus their love emerging as the Shadow that threatens the Third Age passes away [the scene where he kisses her brow and the wind from the fall of Mordor blows is wonderful!] is symbolic of how simple humans, along with simple dwarves, and -of course- simple hobbits, have a share in the new hope created for Middle-Earth.
phew! off on a tangent we wents, yess my preciousss [or should i show respect for the dead and not do Gollum again?- until i read LOTR from the beginning again!]. but that goes to show again how i love Eowyn- and Faramir *grin*
Posted by yiorgos @ 2001 Jun 15 06:02 PM EST
At last you have come to my very favorite chapter in LOTR! I have to say that Éowyn and Faramir's romance was one of the few that ever surprised me in a book. Most books I can figure out who the characters will fall in love with, but not this one.
My favorite lines in this chapter are not the kiss one, but two before it: "And as they stood so, their hands met and clasped, though they did not know it......And so they stood on the walls of the City of Gondor, and a great wind rose and blew, and their hair, raven and golden, streamed out mingling in the air."
Sigh, I do love Tolkien's prose.......
Yes, Faramir is the heartthrob of the book, at least for Faramir fans such as myself. I always thought Aragorn was a little too "rough", and then he gets too 'proud and noble" for my tastes. Faramir is very humble, for he is "not a king."
About the unrealistic rapidity when they fall in love, I think that it can happen. They were together almost all day for nearly six days just talking and walking and whatever. You can get to know a person that way, and even fall in love.
Posted by talierin @ 2001 Jun 15 06:09 PM EST
One might fall in love in even less than six days ;).
Posted by Ruby @ 2001 Jun 15 06:16 PM EST
Ruby, you're right! I forgot about love at first sight! hmm.....makes you wonder about when they finally meet.
Posted by talierin @ 2001 Jun 15 06:18 PM EST
Woa yiorgos.....
I'm sure it's a slip but Deb lives in CANADA. If there is one thing that we Canadians don't like, it's being confused with americans. I don't want to say anymore because I'll get my self in trouble.
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 15 06:20 PM EST
I belive that it was Faramir that fell in love with Eowyn when she had lost all hope and only wanted to go to battle and die with honour. It was Faramir's love for her that helped to complete her healing because she was still some what dead inside.
As long as she does not say "You complete me" in the movie, this will be a great scene.
Have a good weekend all. I've got to go to the Prancing Pony and have a pint (or 12).
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 15 06:30 PM EST
I understood what yiorgos said, but I'm american. Basically, to paraphrase, Éowyn and Faramir are not so "fairy taleish" as Aragorn and Arwen. Therefore, we relate more to them, as they seem more "human" in their love than A&A, the perfect couple.
If PJ doesn't follow extremly close to this chapter in the movies I'm gonna be really, really mad.
Posted by Talierin @ 2001 Jun 15 06:59 PM EST
I feel the need to defend Aragorn just a bit :-). I think it's very unfair to say he came through without a scratch. Although he was not wounded in battle as was Faramir, he is shown throughout LOTR laboring and suffering a great deal to defeat Sauron. Daring to look into the Palantir in order to distract Sauron's attention away from Mordor was a prodigiously brave thing that no other character (save perhaps Gandalf) would have been up to. We saw what the Palntiri did to Denethor and Saruman. I can easily admire Faramir's abundant strengths without denegrating Aragorn (or any other character). Each did all that was needed to win the day, each in the ways that his talents and abilities dictated.
Posted by Jeff B @ 2001 Jun 15 07:22 PM EST
I forgot one other point in my last post. Some people have said that it is hard to believe that Faramir and Eowyn could fall in love so quickly. My own parents met and were married within 5 days . They are just about to celebrate their 47th wedding anniversary. I have no problem at all believing that Faramir and Eowyn could fall in love within six days. :-)
Posted by Jeff B @ 2001 Jun 15 07:25 PM EST
I agree with Jeff B completely: 'I can easily admire Faramir's abundant strengths without denegrating Aragorn (or any other character). Each did all that was needed to win the day, each in the ways that his talents and abilities dictated'
It kind of unfair to say compare Aragorn and Faramir, and even more so to say that Faramir is better because he seems more 'human.' Do they mean that being fallable is a more contemporary human trait, and that Aragorn is unfallable, and therefore inhuman and unlikeable?
I happen to think that Aragorn IS very human. But he's wise enough to know his limitations anyway, and he's human enough to fear his gifts and weaknesses. Therefore he chooses not to take up foolish tasks for selfish reasons or glory. A true mythic figure would most likely not take his weaknesses into account, or think twice about risking the saftey of friends and family as Aragorn does.
In that way, he's a fatherly figure, like Gandalf. They do the difficult things because they have to. Because people are depending on them. Because they have no choice in the matter, except giving up and letting everyone down.
There's emotional truth in that. And just because it's an innocent viewpoint doesen't make it any less valid than something darker and more complicated, (imho).
Posted by Min @ 2001 Jun 15 08:23 PM EST
About my comments, I see that I was a little 'hasty' about my view on Aragorn. Yes, I did degrade him, but I was excited that Debbie finally got to my fave chapter, and I wasn't thinking very clearly at that moment. I do like Aragorn, and yes, he is very human, he just doesn't show it quite as much sometimes as Faramir. I was trying not to compare the two men, but looking back, I did compare a little, and degrade, and for that I'm sorry. It's just that Aragorn has never been one of my really favorite characters like Faramir, and I'm still not sure what to make of him. Perhaps next time I read LOTR I will follow him.
Posted by Talierin @ 2001 Jun 15 09:07 PM EST
Allison, you might want to filter this from Debbie. Not too sure what she'd consider a spoiler.
Something to keep in mind about Aragorn: the War of the Ring was *everything* to him. Elrond would not let any mortal marry Arwen unless he be king of all the West. Thus, the quest was the last great hope for the restoration of a unified West, as well as the only chance Aragorn had of marrying Arwen. The nice thing is, he realizes the debt he owes Frodo, which is why he kneels to him in one scene.
Posted by Christopher @ 2001 Jun 15 09:57 PM EST
I was up on TORN the other day, and somebody had compiled their favorite one-liners from LOTR under such headings as funniest comment, coolest description of a sunset, etc. "And he took her in his arms and kissed her. . ." was under the heading of most romantic kiss. Ahhh. . . .
Like someone already said, I love how Eowyn and Faramir find each other. I admit I was a bit annoyed at Aragorn first time through (I'd forgotten all about Arwen, I'm afraid) when he didn't return Eowyn's love, and was so glad when she fell in love with Faramir. So satisfying.
Okay, warning: really stupid question alert!
Why didn't Aragorn go to Minas Tirith and claim his kingship before all this? Was it because he didn't want Sauron to know about him yet?
Posted by E. Gamgee @ 2001 Jun 15 10:38 PM EST
Yiorgos,
I, too, was going to point out to you that Debbie is from Canada (Toronto, I believe), and not American.
To address your other question, "EST" stands for Eastern Standard Time. "Eastern" for the Eastern North American time zone, and "Standard" as in "not Daylight Savings Time".
To link the Canadian and Time Zone topics: Time Zones are a Canadian invention, thanks to Sir Sandford Fleming. I think the idea of Daylight Savings Time might be too, but I'm not as sure about that.
Posted by Don @ 2001 Jun 15 10:50 PM EST
When we were talking about hair color in the last chapter someone made a comment about Faramir's hair color and I started to write a post saying "I think it should definitely be black because one of the most beautiful images in the book is when Eowyn and Faramir are standing together and, "their hair, raven and golden, streamed out mingling in the air." Then at the last second I thought "Oh no! that would be a MAJOR spoiler!!" So luckily (phew!) I didn't post it.
But NOW, talierin beat me to it, but I must say that this is one of my favorite images in all of LOTR. So I'm not a little disappointed that in the movies Faramir seems to have dirty blond hair!! ARgh! Maybe his hair will be REAL dirty or something. Oh well. I suppose that it's just a purist thing that most won't notice. (sigh)
Posted by Phil @ 2001 Jun 15 11:59 PM EST
Well, I'm an American on CDT (Central Daylight Time) ;-) and I just read a short essay by Tom Shippey entitled "Tolkien and Me" at borders.com Tom Shippey recently wrote J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century and is evidently causing quite a stir because he is a respected academic who defends Tolkien. Anyway, I really enjoyed the essay and thought some of you might, too. The link is http://go.borders.com/features/shippey.xcv I think even Debbie could read this at this point - I read through it a couple of times and could detect no spoilers for her.
Posted by Jan @ 2001 Jun 16 12:00 AM EST
Yup, Deb lives in Toronto, Canada. I live in a small town called Thornhill which is just north of Toronto (Deb and I are pretty much a subway ride apart). Thornhill's greatest claim to sf/fantasy movie fame right now is that it's the hometown of Hayden Christensen, Anakin Skywalker in the next SW movie. It makes me laugh that Darth Vader is from Thornhill :).
yiorgos- I think Aragorn and Arwen's story is lovely, though perhaps it is unfortunate that the story isn't explored more within the text of LOTR. I wish Tolkien had spent more time with Arwen in the story as there are glimpses of her that are intriguing and sympathetic. Perhaps it's that sense that drives Peter Jackson to want to explore her character more, too (though even more adding a strong female presence and a romance early in the movie series will be good for the box office, I'm sure).
And I've always found Aragorn to be well-balanced within the story- he's another character I've warmed to increasingly the more I've read the book. The glory and honour and "off to war" bravado will never be my favorite part of LOTR, but I love Strider's travels with the hobbits, the protectiveness and vulnerability we see in Aragorn as the leader of Fellowship, his empathy as a healer (especially in Book 5, Chapter 8), and other traits that are still spoilers for the next chapter. I think those traits are still all caught up in the King.
Christopher- Nope, I don't think such comments interfere seriously with any of the story in LOTR that is left.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 16 12:42 AM EST
Elanor,
"Why didn't Aragorn go to Minas Tirith and claim his kingship before all this?"
I feel that it's because he really had to earn it. We can all understand why Denethor didn't want to accept a king returning under any circumstances, but in the absence of saving Gondor from Sauron or something equally heroic, I think most of the people of Minas Tirith would feel the same way.
Imagine....
"I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn, hier of Isildur and Anarion, and I have returned to reclaim the kingship of Arnor and Gondor!"
"Yeah, right, whatever..." "Take a bath!"
"But lo! Here is Narsil, reforged! And the Elfstone!"
"They look pretty realistic, but the theater's two blocks over, and I don't think they're auditioning for 'The King Returns' until next month."
:-)
(After all, why didn't Arathorn or his father or his father wander down to Gondor and claim the kingship?)
Actually, if you can make it through the "chronicle" style of Appendix A(I)(iv), you'll see that there was a valid question of the succession of Aragorn's ancestors (the kings of Arnor) to the crown of Gondor. At the time, Gondor rejected the claim, and this led, not too long after, to the end of the line of the Kings and the rule of the Stewards. It would take a lot for them to overthrow this decision, which had stood for over 1000 years.
Posted by Olorin @ 2001 Jun 16 04:09 AM EST
whoa, Everybody Loves Aragorn it seems!
to defend myself, as i said "my sarcasm serves only my point" [or something along those lines]. Of course Aragorn is human et.c., but what i am saying is that, when compared to the others, you have to admit that he is far more ideal in most things. It's just that, Aragorn is the archetypal Hero, and i do not agree with Min that
"A true mythic figure would most likely not take his weaknesses into account, or think twice about risking the saftey of friends and family as Aragorn does." That, according to my definition would not be a mythical hero [but again that's my definition]. The fact that =even here= Aragorn doesnot fail make him even more heroic from my point of view.
the point i made about Aragorn and Faramir was not to degrade Aragorn, but rather to show how more likeable Faramir is, or rather, accessible. Aragorn is too high up there to identify with- he's more like a role model.
To All Canadian Peoples: oops! yes, i am aware that Canadians tend to seperate themselves from the Americans, i just wasn't aware that Debbie was Canadian-heh. Sorry if i offended anyone :D
Posted by yiorgos @ 2001 Jun 16 04:31 AM EST
I think Aragorn is one of the best chatacters in the trilogy. Aragorn and Gandalf are the backbones of the quest. From the start he knows the future of all of middle earth will depend on what happens to the ring, and that his actions will be a deciding factor on the outcome. He knows he is of royal blood but, for the good of all, he remains anonomous and continues to do his best to protect the lands from the evil that is expanding across the land. He is a ranger that travels hither and yon and goes to where his help is needed most. He does the grunt work in a perilous land where friend or foe may be lurking. Aragorn, it seems to me, knows who he is yet he was a bit reluctant to become, I guess I'll say, a "star" and I like that about him. He kept himself in the background until he was forced to step up. I think he is much like Faramir but his destiny is different.
Posted by CCS @ 2001 Jun 16 04:44 AM EST
I worship Aragorn.
But only had the hots for Faramir :)
I hope *HOPE* this is done well in the film. Apparently they had to re-take the kiss several times.Sure...
As for the speed in which they fall in love..we believe it when Shakespeare tells it..sometimes( as all romantics know) it really is that fast ...
Aelinwen
Posted by Aelinwen @ 2001 Jun 16 05:34 AM EST
I've always had a soft spot for Aragorn. My image of him is very affected by the way he is introduced. When we meet him at The Prancing Pony, he first seems like a threat to the hobbits, and then it turns out he is Gandalf's friend and also really the hobbits best friend at that moment. His looks are grim, but his heart is warm, noble and gentle. And he yearns to be loved and accepted as he is, without having to proove himself. That's one of the reasons why he never mentions his friendship to Gandalf.
I think these introduction scenes with Strider/Aragorn tells you so much about him. There's an air of sadness, loneliness and longing around him, combined with a strong willpower. And at the same time you can sense the and happy and humorous young man in him, when he jokes and laughs with the hobbits.
Strider moved my heart from the very first beginning. The Aragorn part of him is, as someone said, less accessible. But I always remember the sad-happy man inside him. And I find that I often identify with him in his moments of distress and doubt.
If I, as a *woman*, had to choose between the two (what at dream situation!!!:)), I'd probably take Faramir, though. Aragorn is so complex. I would feel that he was "to hot to handle", if you get my point. I probably takes someone immortal and a few thousand years older to be his equal...
As a woman, I prefer an accessible man to a King. Especially in the long run. Eowyn made a great choice!! :)))
Posted by Katarina @ 2001 Jun 16 06:24 AM EST
Canada and the USA both former colonies, what's the difference? ;-). (from the former roman colony of Britannia)
Do you recognise who made this speech
"All I have done today has gone amiss. What is to be done now?"
Seems Aragorn did not think himself infallible.
Posted by Alan C @ 2001 Jun 16 06:49 AM EST
After a few requests, I have removed a small spoiler from E. Gamgee's first letter above. I'm not quite sure it's a spoiler, but I've decided to let the people speak :).
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 16 07:55 AM EST
Here's a quote (from Pippin):
"Here was one (Faramir) with an air of high nobility such as Aragorn at times revealed, less high perhaps, yet also less incalculable and remote: one of the Kings of Men born into a later time, but touhed with the wisdom and sadness of the Eldar race."
I admire both Aragorn and Faramir, but I think Faramir is easier to identify with. Maybe its because we get to know Faramir so well, whereas Aragorn is always shrouded in mystery, kind of like Gandalf.
Posted by Raych @ 2001 Jun 16 08:19 AM EST
(Well, here is a European on Central European Summer Time, 50th parallel, 15th meridian :o))
Hi, Debbie! Faramir is # 1! Welcome to the club ;o)))))
I love Faramir because although he has a strong personality, he obeys someone’s commands every time he appears in the book. I admire it. I can see the difference between him and Eowyn. She’s a typical woman – not satisfied with what she’s supposed to ;o))))..but don’t kill me, I love her, of course. I just love her more after she falls in love with Faramir. She is more womanlike then, IMHO. I don’t think the relationship between Faramir and Eowyn is “unrealistic”. She thought she loved Aragorn but she didn’t. She didn’t know him at all. Now she meets Faramir and spends 1 week only with him. It’s quite a long time, especially in a fairytale :o)
I don’t think Aragorn is somewhat worse then Faramir, no, not at all! He is great. He is not less human. We see him in a very difficult position as he is a king. We can watch him throughout the whole story so we can thing he is “too perfect”, but isn’t Faramir as perfect as Aragorn? Is there any blunder Farmir did? No! I think they both are VERY SIMILAR, only their position in the world’s society (sounds terribly :o)) and their age (which is also very important, IMHO) is different. I agree with Min (see her post somewhere above), that Aragorn is more fatherly figure (like Gandalf). He is some 90! years old or so. How can we compare him to Faramir who is about 30? BTW Aragorn was my favourite until I met Faramir…. :o)
E. Gamgee: I agree. Arwen is a very mysterious person for first-readers, indeed. It was JRRT’s intent, IMHO. We see the story much through hobbit’s eyes. How much do they know about Strider’s kingly future? And how much could they know about Arwen? It’s a good idea to expand her character in the film, to involve something from the appendix, although I’m really AFRAID what comes out of it :o(
And Phil, I definitely WILL notice that Faramir (and Boromir) is blond :o( I’m fond of Tolkien’s men with black hair and pale skin, not mentioning that Gondorians SHOULD be like that. (Just imagine Eowyn of Rohirrim with brown hair :o(…terrible!)
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 16 09:19 AM EST
I hope Debbie will read some of the appendices after she is done. The ones on the history of Middle Earth are very worthwhile.
Regarding Eowyn's blonde hair, judging by pictures from the upcoming movies, it looks like she will be have dirty blonde hair. I always pictured her as much more golden blonde. Oh well. Faramir's hair doesn't appear to be black in the films either (nor Boromir's).
Posted by Ufthak @ 2001 Jun 16 11:13 AM EST
That LOTR parody linked to above is hilarious!
"As far as he could remember, Sam slept through the night
in deep content, if logs that chased and then happily savaged
their imperialistic masters are contented."
"The next morning came, pale and clammy. The three friends went on
walking through the trees, and Frodo began to chant to himself in a low voice:
'The Road goes ever on and on,
and on and on and on and on,
and on and on the Road has gone,
why did I let Morrie drive the cart?'"
""Fair lady!" said Frodo quickly, knowing that in a domestic dispute the guests were also bound to suffer. 'Tell me, if it hasn't been discussed over and over again, who is Tom Bombadil? Is he a Maia that went native? Is he
perhaps an authorial self-insertion? Is he Eru, God Almighty?'
Goldberry snorted. 'Mainly, he's a very bad singer.'"
Ha!
Posted by Teshi @ 2001 Jun 16 12:57 PM EST
As far as the appendices are concerned, I'd recommend Deb jump to the last two pages of Appendix B and read them right after she finishes Chapter 9. I'm very interested to see her reaction to what's written there. Aragorn and Arwen's story in Appendix A is pretty crucial to a full understanding of LOTR, too. Beyond that, she can read the appendices at her leisure as there's lots of wonderful information to discover there (I'm particularly fond of the family trees in Appendix C).
But the last two pages of Appendix B, Deb- that's where I want you to start and report on :).
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 16 01:00 PM EST
Several things to say here. First of all, Allison, I agree completely with your suggestions on what to read in the Appendices (what to read first, anyway), though I might suggest reading the Aragorn and Arwen story in Appendix A before reading Appendix B.
Second, my thanks to Teshi and Olorin for their compliments on our little "E-text" of LotR. Olorin posted the link to the parody after the last chapter; for those who missed it, the main address is
http://www.speakeasy.org/~ohh/book/
The "Road Goes Ever On" parody that Teshi quoted above is actually from one of my own chapters; I'm glad you enjoyed it. (I personally liked the last couple lines of the chapter better, though.) :-)
Posted by Steuard @ 2001 Jun 16 01:25 PM EST
Yes, I'm sure Debbie will love Appendix A and the last part of Appendix B, but personally I can't wait to see her reaction to the thrill and excitement of Appendix D! It's amazing to me that Tolkien left this wonderful prose out of the main part of the story.
As we come to the end of the story, we should all be very careful not to relax our guard and accidentally give any spoilers for Appendix D, tempting as it might be....
Posted by Olorin @ 2001 Jun 16 01:43 PM EST
referring to the Tolkien parody: amazing. i just read the "Voice of Aruman". brilliant! Question: since each chapter is written by someone else, is there a consistent story line you have all agreed on, or are you just put things in as you go along?
Posted by yiorgos @ 2001 Jun 16 01:45 PM EST
Yiorgos: no, there's no story line that we've agreed upon. :-) The parody started out when O. Sharp wrote the first chapter about a year ago, and Ojevind Lang and I followed up with contributions at his invitation. We all basically took the story in whatever directions we thought would be interesting, and tried to remain consistent with what went before. (You've probably noticed that we weren't always successful at that!) Given that lack of organization, it's pretty impressive how well it's actually turned out. :-)
I shouldn't use the past tense, actually: we're still working on the parody after all this time (there have been a few substantial delays). It's currently gotten up through Book IV Chapter 6, though that isn't up on O. Sharp's website yet (it has appeared on the newsgroup, and I've got it on my administrative pages' chapter list).
Hmm. I've just noticed that there's a typo in the hyperlink to the parody that I gave in my last post (the text is right, though). At the risk of saying the same thing too many times, I'll give the link again:
http://www.speakeasy.org/~ohh/book/
Posted by Steuard @ 2001 Jun 16 02:02 PM EST
"'Right. We'll drop the subject,' said Frodo. 'Nevertheless, I am
pursued, even before I have left the Shire. I am supposed to meet
Gandalf in Bree, but I don't know how I'll even make it that far, or
what to do if he isn't there. I'm at a loss, I'm frightened, and I'm
bearing a terrible burden on which may rest the fate of all Middle-earth. Can you give me any advice?'
'No. Yes.' said Gildor."
LOL
Posted by Teshi @ 2001 Jun 16 02:03 PM EST
Steuard: Yup, I can see that reading Aragorn and Arwen's story before the last two pages of Appendix B would be a better way to go. OK, Deb, I would request reports on both those sections after Chapter 9, please.
Olorin: Loved your comments/warnings about Appendix D :D.
And I've been laughing myself silly for the last hour reading the parody of LOTR linked above and that's a fact... ( does Sam -really- say that phrase that many times in LOTR? I must go back and check... :))
Though I think you people are evil- this will forever colour my view of LOTR...
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 16 02:19 PM EST
On the subject of parodies, I don't know if any of you guys have seen this "trailer" on TORn's fan section, but it's hilarious. My sister and I were dying of laughter when we watched it.
http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0101/rings/
Don't laugh too hard!
Here's another funny one:
http://server2043.virtualave.net/kotukunui/Video/lotr_trailer.mov
Enjoy!
Posted by Talierin @ 2001 Jun 16 02:30 PM EST
btw, you'll need quicktime for both of them.
Posted by talierin @ 2001 Jun 16 02:31 PM EST
ok ok, it's long, and i am a bastard for posting this WITHOUT ASKING FOR COPYRIGHT PERMISSION FROM THE TOLKIEN SARKASM PAGE *gasp!*. but i hope they won't mind ;)
one of the crackpot theories, bound to become a favourite of Aragorn bashers [ha!] everywhere:
"Aragorn? Are we talking about the same sad excuse for a Dunadan who couldn't get over a stuck-up older woman who wouldn't give him the time of the day for twenty-nine years? The same rat who connived to usurp the kingship of Gondor -- a realm that had happily gotten rid of the last king nearly 1000 years ago -- taking advantage of some broken, rusty, factory-refurbished sword he found in his foster father's attic and a 1000 old myth about his ancestors? (How would you react if the descendent of Charlemagne showed up in Paris today to claim kingship over France, bringing in the shroud of Turin as the evidence?)
You have to admire the intricacies of his insidious plot to weaken and eventually eliminate the line of the Stewards while keeping his hands clean, though. First, he "erred" by leaving Boromir to die at the hands of Orcs (then had the cheek to win himself renown for chasing those same Orcs down Rohan, while making Eomer and friends do the actual work in destroying them!). Then he sent in his partners-in-evil, Gandalf Stormcrow and Peregrin the Hobbit, to fill poor Denethor with grief, entice him into looking into the Palantir, and hasten his death (but not so quickly that he couldn't win brownie points by arriving "just in time" to save the day at Minas Tirith, only hours after Denethor had died!). And, after the war was over, he finally marched in himself to wrest power peacefully from Faramir, who was too spineless to resist him (not that he could have done much, after all the clever PR campaigns Aragorn had done for himself in the city). Talk about perfect crime -- Saruman would have been proud."
LOOOL,
i wish i could bash at Aragorn as eloquently as this guy. FARAMIR I LOVE YOU! [ok, Eowyn too]
Posted by yiorgos @ 2001 Jun 16 02:40 PM EST
Though your parody starts to get -way- strange here, guys, as the chapters go on... :)
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 16 04:02 PM EST
Teshi>> Some of those quotes came from the the Tom Bombadil chapter which I wrote -- I'm very glad you liked it!
<g> And that Gildor line (was it by Steuard I think?) probably still remain my favourite two words in the whole parody...
Posted by Aris Katsaris @ 2001 Jun 16 05:22 PM EST
Katarina: Thank you. After all that Aragorn bashing it was a relief to hear a word from someone who is able to love Faramir without hating Aragorn.
Posted by Segeant @ 2001 Jun 16 06:23 PM EST
Aris: the Gildor line _was_ one of mine. [bow] As I said earlier, it remains one of my favorite bits, too, though I'm clearly biased. :-)
Allison: Yeah, the parody does get a little strange as you go on through it. There are two reasons, I think. First of all, each chapter is written by a different person (with some repetition), so eventually you're bound to find some people whose approaches you enjoy and some that are just, well, weird. Second, and more important, we've been working on the thing for a very long time, and people have sometimes decided to take the story in strange directions just to keep it from getting dull. Sometimes those attempts have worked out better than others. :-)
Keep with it, though... at least until you listen to my Simon and Garfunkel parody in Book IV Chapter 4. :-) (Yes, Book IV is going to have a few chapters that aren't actually based on chapters in the real LotR, and mine ended up being the first of them.) It probably wouldn't be as funny those who haven't read _The Silmarillion_, mind you. Incidentally, at what point in the parody did you make your "way strange" comment?
Posted by Steuard @ 2001 Jun 16 06:51 PM EST
I hope this is not a spoiler....
To comment on the Aragorn being less human than Faramir, acctually he is. I know that's not what was meant by those comments but I have had a new respect for Aragon since learning of his peoples history. Aragorn and his kin are the last true blooded people from Neumenor (spelling). They are decendant from Elrond's brother who was given the choice to become human (yet he lived 500 years) and Elrond chose to be one of the elves. The reason the brothers were given this choise is that they had elvish blood. (I don't want to get it wrong, so I won't go from memory as to the exact liniage) Elrond's brother Elros went with his people to an island that was given to them by the Valar and they dwelt there for a long time while the people who remained on Middle Earth were mingled with more ~savage~ people. The island was Neumanor (spelling, again). It was eventually brought to ruin by none other than Sauron.
I think that the stuards (Faramir's familly) had some Neumanorian blood, more than Theoden anyway. But Aragorn was a true blooded decendant of those people. So after all that my point is this.....
Aragorn was less human than Faramir, he was just a little more elvish.
P.S. I don't want to start the debate about Tolkien being so concerned about true blood lines and race. It has been discussed in other places.
Posted by Big Mike @ 2001 Jun 16 07:22 PM EST
this is the last time i'm pasting something hugish here- i promise!
""Which order shall we go in," said Frodo. "Smartest first, or cutest first? You'll be last either way, Master Pipsqueak."
"No fear!" said Merry, "There are two tubs back there. You're left with the shower, though, Sam. In a class-based society such as this you really can't expect a servant-boy like you to enjoy the same luxuries as your betters."
As the three travelers filed back to the washroom, Sam was muttering something about ". . . first one up against the wall when the revolution comes." Soon, though, the sound of splashing and wallowing was mixed with the sound of Pipsqueak's favorite bathing song.
Rubber Ducky, you're the one, You make bathtime lots of fun,
Rubber Ducky, I'm awfully fond of you;
(woh woh, bee doh!)"
the woh woh bee doh just kills me! and i like the idea of a pollitically aware Sam!
Posted by yiorgos @ 2001 Jun 17 04:20 AM EST
Hi! I love this chapter too, and I love Faramir almost as much as Aragorn. But Aragorn stole my heart back in Bree when he said, "And I look foul and feel fair, is that it?" And laughed as he said it. That laugh won me. He seemed like a guy who didn't mind laughing at himself.
I had a strange encounter this weekend. I was at a wedding reception, and there was a young woman there wearing elf ears. So my husband and I asked her why, and she said she worked at the renfest in the summer and considered herself to be an elf. So naturally he asked her if she was a Tolkien fan. She made a face and said, "Oh, I loathe him. He uses too many words. And his characters have such hard names. I couldn't remember Galadriel, so I just called her Ginger." I sat there with my mouth open, totally speechless. "Ginger", forsooth! And "too many words". Sweet Elbereth, what we wouldn't give for more of those words. Well, there's no accounting for tastes. But I laughed about it later, and thought you could laugh with me.
I decided to go ahead and follow Sam and Frodo after Book 2, in spite of the advice I got to the contrary from Big Mike, I think it was. I've always had trouble getting into Book 4 before, because it's so danged hard getting down off the Emyn Muil. It did make it easier to jump from Book 2 to Book 4. They're just taking their leave of Faramir in Ithilien. A very interesting experiment. There was one place where there was a major spoiler doing it this way, though. Frodo doesn't know that Gandalf is alive, but Tolkien mentions it in a had-he-but-known kind of aside.
Oh, and I gave the address of this site to two of my fellow fans (two more Coloradans!) So Dudley and Marc, if you see this, hi.
I'm from Loveland, by the way.
Posted by Karen @ 2001 Jun 17 02:53 PM EST
Olorin:
Appendix D???? Can't believe that :oD I just see your serious countenance while you write it...
L*O*L :o))))))))
BTW: you all, great posts here lately :o)
Posted by Katerina Str. @ 2001 Jun 17 03:14 PM EST
I've been through Loveland more times than I can remember! A friend of mine lives near there in Berthoud.
So how many of us exactly are there living in or formerly of Colorado?
Me
Karen
Steve B.
Phil
Tom
Any more out there? Just add to the list!
I just had a kinda creepy experience. A guy at my local copy center looked just like Viggo Mortenson, except he had a lot of earrings and his hair was reddish. The resemblance was scary! This guy could have fun waiting in line for LOTR if he dressed up as Aragorn!
Posted by Talierin @ 2001 Jun 17 04:47 PM EST
Karen, Talierin:
Loveland? what a name for a place! when Karen first mentioned it i was trying to decipher it, connect it with what she said before but i couldn't! It never crossed my mind that it was a name [of a town or area perhaps?]. I know, i am terrifyingly slow and stupid, no offence meant ;]
Posted by yiorgos @ 2001 Jun 17 06:35 PM EST
Loveland is a town north of Denver. I've done stupid things like your thing before, don't worry about it.
Posted by Talierin @ 2001 Jun 17 09:21 PM EST
Speaking of artwork, which we were a chapter or so back, reminded me of a poster that was on my wall all through university that I was fond of. It was a LOTR poster, but I don't know who the artist was. I'm pretty sure it was a common poster at the time. It was in shades of black, grey, beige and green with Gandalf and Frodo as the central characters. I -think- Gollum and Legolas were on the poster, too, maybe some orcs, and it had psychedelic lettering on the top that said LOTR. Anyone else remember this poster? Unfortunately after a handful of post-university moves my poster got ripped and battered and it probably got thrown out along with all my Tolkien Hildebrandt calendars, which I wish I still had, too.
Hey, this board has gotten quiet. We need more topics for discussion until Deb comes back again.
Posted by Allison @ 2001 Jun 18 09:53 AM EST
Just a little shout out to Prince Imrahil, without whom this grand love scene would not be!
HAIL PRINCE IMRAHIL!
*refer to my post on battle of pelennor to see the deatails*
Posted by Hevron Pathor @ 2001 Jun 26 02:03 PM EST
