SCENARIO: Grizelda is a filker who sings a capella and tends to be shy. She is sitting in a fairly large open chaos filk circle and after listening for a while, wants to perform her song. However, she has no idea how to signal that she wants to do a song because every time someone's song ends, another filker leaps right in. Grizelda has no obvious instrument, so the other filkers tend to overlook her. Eventually she gets frustrated and leaves.

The following has been culled from responses posted at the end of this page, rec.music.filk, and this Dandelion Report entry.

What Grizelda could have done:

- Sit where people can easily see her, like in the front row or inner circle. Even if she doesn't use lyrics, it might be good to have something resembling lyrics (even a sheet of paper) in her lap to clue people into the fact that she has something to perform. From Phil Parker: "The bottom line is, almost every filk circle will support you once you actually get over the threshold to get yourself noticed, but you have to start the process yourself."

- When it's time for people to signal they want a turn to perform, Grizelda needs to find some way of getting attention. Suggestions from filkers included slapping a clipboard, strumming someone's guitar or having someone do it for her, beating on a drum or ringing bells, standing up, holding up lyrics, waving your hands. Make eye contact. Lee Gold suggested standing up and starting to sing (and sitting down after you get the circle's attention).

- From "redaxe" on LJ: "If your song is a "follower", that is, it is related to the song currently being sung, wait until after the song and clearly and loudly state "I have a follower!" In most polite chaos circles, people will listen to you at that point. If there is a list of songs to be sung, speak up ANYWAY. Tell people you want to sing, and you can take your place in the list."

- Ask a more assertive person for help in getting a turn. From Bill Roper: "Find one of the filkers who is singing regularly (but maybe not the one who is singing most often :) ). Whisper in their ear that you've got a funny/serious song on a particular topic and if they could find a place where it would seem to fit in and introduce you to the circle so you could sing it, you'd appreciate it. This usually works, although you may need to wait a bit until the mood comes around..."

- From "vixyish" on LJ: "Grizelda can speak as soon as a song ends and say 'could I perform something?' Even if she speaks at the same time as someone is strumming their guitar, I've never *once* seen a circle that didn't respond to exactly that with either 'Sure, go ahead, and Bob will go after you!' or 'Sure; Bob's up right now, and then you'll be next after him.' I've literally never seen this fail. Filkers are marvelously welcoming and accommodating people, if only you SPEAK UP. Just say something."

- If the circle is really big and aggressive, trying to get people's attention is going to be more hassle than it's worth. I've seen too many instances where half a dozen filkers start yelling "I HAVE A FOLLOWER!" the -instant- a performer finishes a song or recital, all trying to yell louder than the others. I generally leave to find a smaller circle when the atmosphere reaches this point, whether or not I'm in performance or listener mode. If Grizelda feels similarly, she might consider the following:

- Look for a smaller filk circle, perhaps bardic. If there isn't one, then she should find some other filkers who would be willing to start one with her. From Kay Shapero: "In general when you see a lot of folks sitting around and only a handful singing, it's probably time to consider bardic or pokerchip."

What the filk circle could have done:

Keep an eye on the circle and help encourage those who seem shy or unable to break in. Without being obnoxious about it, you could ask, "I haven't heard you do anything yet. Do you have something you'd like to perform?" Sometimes just that encouragement will help a shy filker find the confidence to start.

From Scott Snyder: "I believe that asking a shy person to stand up, shout out, or otherwise bring attention to themselves is basically saying 'The solution to being shy is: Don't be shy', which of course, is not a solution to the problem.

The problem here is one of the circle itself, and what needs to change is not Grizelda's behaviour, but the behaviour of the group. Even a chaos circle should pay attention and notice when someone is possibly ready to sing, and offer that person a turn. Of course, the reality is - this rarely happens. Which is why Chaos works for small groups but breaks down in large groups.

Moderated Chaos is the only situation where I've seen chaos actually work across all skill levels of performers, and would mean that situations like Grizelda's would be minimized.

Now if ol' Griz is going to sit on the outside of the circle, with her head down, and not make any attempt to get the attention of the group - then another group is the answer for her. You have to be somewhere that you feel comfortable enough to stand up and be counted."

From Dave Alway: "A filk circle is a community -- a social -- event. At root, courtesy and etiquette, the morays of any social event, are the keys to a "chaos" filk circle that welcomes new filkers."

From Lee Gold: "I should note that this sound likes what I term Piranha Chaos, and is apt to frighten off shy guitarists too. The long-term solution is for shy people to form their own, smaller circles or for all the singers to be a bit less frenziedly competitive. Singers will feel more secure at doing this if the singers frantically struggling for the next song are queued up rather than having to compete just as frantically at the next moment of silence, and shy people may then ask to be put on the queue list."

From Paul Bristow: "Ultimately, though, this problem really should be addressed at source: ALL performers, however good and however popular, should have the good grace to check around and see who else is waiting to sing, rather than just jumping in every time they happen to have a good follower. Be disciplined: Ration yourself."

ALSO SEE:

Faq entry: Any tips for shy or nervous filkers?
Faq entry: What's the difference between a 'bardic' and 'chaos' filk circle?
Faq entry: How can I have a successful chaos circle?

Trapped in a Chaos Circle
TTTO: "Computer Wizard," Cynthia McQuillin? (not sure about the
attribution)
Words by Justin Eiler

Notes: Sort of a first-person perspective on "Filksingers,
Filksingers..."

I'm trapped in a Chaos Circle,
The songs would make a brave soul shake with dread.
I can't get the attention of the singers,
And this filk-sing may go on 'till I'm dead.

I don't have a guitar to get attention,
(Or club the jerk who's singing ose--off key!)
It's been nine hours--I didn't bring my lunchbag!
Oh, will this circle be the death of me?

I'm trapped in a Chaos Circle,
So next day, when the filkers go to bed,
They'll find me dead, but my song will now haunt them...
It's that damn song you can't get out of your head!

One idea is to take along something you can use to get attention, even if it's not actually very musical. I've found, for example, that a clip board can make a loudish "thok" if I slap it with the length of my thumb. It serves as both percussion during singalongs, and a way of making an attention-catching noise between songs. Alternatively, you can raise it in the air to request your turn - It's a bit more eye-catching than just waving a hand.

Ultimately, though, this problem really should be addressed at source: ALL performers, however good and however popular, should have the good grace to check around and see who else is waiting to sing, rather than just jumping in every time they happen to have a good follower. Be disciplined: Ration yourself.

One possible solution is for Grizelda to ask a more assertive person sitting next to her for help in grabbing a turn. Also, location helps: a shy filker sitting in the back of the room may have more trouble getting noticed than if they can sneak into the front row/inner circle (granted, sometimes difficult in a large circle).

Another point to consider: if you **know** you're a shy filker but you're really eager to perform, make the decision to skip the big circle and find a smaller, more comfortable circle. At a large filk con (like OVFF) or Worldcon, there's guaranteed to be at least one room that's less aggressive, and often several.

BTDT. IMO, she should have left as soon as the chaos became apparent, without waiting to become frustrated. The situation is hopeless. Even if Grizelda could bring herself to make some sort of signal it would probably still be ignored.

People who are not shy generally can't understand how difficult it is to be shy. When I hear "All you have to do is ..." the ensuing suggestion is usually about as helpful as "levitate in midair". A shy person needs an _invitation_ to perform, which is something someone else has to extend.

Since the community seems unwilling to consign the chaos format to rightful oblivion, the only alternative I can think of is for the shy filker to obtain a loud, pushy friend willing to say "SHADDUP AND LISTEN!!" as needed. Unfortunately this is likely to increase performance anxiety by at least an order of magnitude.

A filk circle is a community -- a social -- event. At root, courtesy and etiquette, the morays of any social event, are the keys to a "chaos" filk circle that welcomes new filkers.

Looking from the other direction, a new filker must understand that only a certain number of songs will be sung at an open filk all night (perhaps 100). Counting singing filkers in the circle and a little arithmetic will give you a number for the upper limit of songs you can expect to sing. Simply working this out should spare you an unrealistic idea of your chances of participation if you stay, and perhaps spare you the grief of disappointment. (Understand, too, that simply listening to filk makes you a no-less-valuable part of the community.)

If the cold equations give you some hope, then the non-instrument-carrying filker who wishes to sing should consider the following three points. Two of them are physical: (1) Find a place in the "inner circle" of the filk. This means you may have to come early before the regulars arrive and fill the inside seats (and, too, the number of singing filkers will be lower at the beginning); (2) A chaos filk is a little like a commodity exchange trading pit, where the commodity trades are song performances. Don't be shy: stand up when you want to sing (or wave your hand) and by all means, make a commotion: 'I've got one!'; and (3) As much to build your confidence, make friends with a long-time filker or filkers before the singing begins, explain beforehand that you'd like to sing at the filk, and sit near him/her/them. Ask them to introduce you: a long-time filker generally will take a proprietary interest in supporting a neofilker.

I think that you'll find a small dose of chutzpah and a bit of advanced planning will help you contribute to an open filk, and that when you understand the dynamics you will have the patience to listen to and enjoy the other people participating in the event.

I should point out that the "100" count in my previous post is for a full weekend (two nights) of filking.

Estimating 10 songs per hour, a 5-hour filk session (10pm-3am) would support about 50 songs, tops.

Interesting responses.

I believe that asking a shy person to stand up, shout out, or otherwise bring attention to themselves is basically saying "The solution to being shy is: Don't be shy", which of course, is not a solution to the problem.

The problem here is one of the circle itself, and what needs to change is not Grizelda's behaviour, but the behaviour of the group. Even a chaos circle should pay attention and notice when someone is possibly ready to sing, and offer that person a turn. Of course, the reality is - this rarely happens. Which is why Chaos works for small groups but breaks down in large groups.

Moderated Chaos is the only situation where I've seen chaos actually work across all skill levels of performers, and would mean that situations like Grizelda's would be minimized.

Now if ol' Griz is going to sit on the outside of the circle, with her head down, and not make any attempt to get the attention of the group - then another group is the answer for her. You have to be somewhere that you feel comfortable enough to stand up and be counted.

I'm often in that position... There aren't any great answers other than avoiding excessively hot chaos filks or learning to fight on that level. Here are a few thoughts, which overlap somewhat with what others have said...

If the circle's running in this mode, be prepared to shout "FOLLOWER!" the moment a song ends, if you have one. DON'T politely wait for folks to stop applauding; you can applaud and shout at the same time, and if you don't someone else will.

If really necessary, shout "FOLLOWER!" even if the song you want to do is only distantly related to the one in progress. It's often possible to find some way to cast a song as a follower -- it replies to the other, or it was written by the same person as the other, or it uses the same alphabet... Or shout first and then say "Now that I've got your attention, this isn't really a follower -- so if someone else has something more closely related they should go first -- but darn it, I've been sitting here all night and I'd like to get ONE song in!"

Related tip: If you know you're shy, see if you can get one of the more confident folks to agree to break in on your behalf when you've got something. Many will be quite willing to do so.

There really should be a designated moderator who's actively looking for, and helping to make room for, the quieter souls. But that's something we ALL should be trying to do. (People seem to be getting a bit better about shouting "Hey, FILKER UP!" objections when someone is walked on when trying to start a song. I really don't like that this has become necessary, but sometimes it is...)

As noted, moving to another room is often the right answer. Downside is that the overactive room is often the one with the most interesting music to _listen_ to. Sometimes that requires deciding whether you're willing to spend this session primarily as audience until things thin out at 3AM or so -- if so, stay, if not, move.

BTW, this is all one of the reasons that I honestly don't believe chaos is a good choice in a large group of strangers. With friends, who know each others' signals, it works. With a small group, so there isn't a mad dash at the end of every song, it can work. Get 20 filkers into a room and chaos becomes just that. As Niven pointed out, anarchy isn't stable.

There is an exception to that rule. *IF* everyone remembers that, no matter what rules we're playing by, an N-performer room means they should on average wait N-1 songs before they sing again, and polices themselves, that works. But that takes more self-discipline than many chaosophiles possess.

Which is why my own preference with strangers or with larger groups is for some form of non-topological bardic, where that fair-share rule is explicit. It can run just about as quickly as chaos -- minus the occasional "I've got something but it isn't my turn, would anyone like to Pick" -- and it guarantees that collisions drop off toward the end of each round so even the timid souls have a window where they can squeeze in.

It's one of the drawbacks of chaos, especially a chaos where people knoweach other and a "mood" get flowing. All the things I would suggest have been sugested (I think)
1) Talk to one of the "leaders" about getting some help in braking in
2) Buy a cheap guitar and strum it, you don't have to use it to sing
3) The people in the circle have a resonsibiliy here as well. I suspect there is a FAQ about this as well.

Truth to tell it's one of the tings I like about being up herein the great white north. We really do try and notice the grizeldas, and encourage them.

Chaos and Bardic both fall down when the circle gets too big. Neither are particularly well designed to deal with a large group of potential performers.

Moderated Chaos is probably the best solution for these types of situations, but filkers disagree on whether it's a "good" thing or not. It certainly solves Grizelda's problem, in most cases, but doesn't solve rate of "songs per minute" that gate all types of circles.

This probably requires it's own topic - the merits of different types of circles and where/when they are best used.

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